[John]

This isn't about non-english speakers. This is about discriminating against everything else.

Should the community tolerate muds that discriminate? Whether it be discriminating against color, sex, where you live, what political party you vote for, nationality, religion, how much you earn* or something else.

Should muds that discriminate be tolerated?

* obviously it can be argued pay-to-play muds discriminate against people who can't afford to mud, but so do all other commercial enterprises. So for this thread I'm not talking about pay-to-play muds

[Estarra]

I personally wouldn't tolerate an atmosphere of discrimination based on sex, origin, race, sexual orientation, etc., but I haven't a clue what you mean when you ask "should the community tolerate" such a mud. What are you suggesting? Flaming muds for perceived discrimination and demanding they not be referred to or listed on TMS or other sites? Just curious.

[John]

Originally Posted by (Estarra @ Mar. 16 2004,00:33) but I haven't a clue what you mean when you ask "should the community tolerate" such a mud.

I was going to say "should such muds be allowed" but that would have obviously created the "muds are owned by private people, they can do whatever they want" so I changed it to "should such muds be tolerated." I'm not saying that the community should try to stop such mud from being listed on TMS, but instead I'm asking do people (a group of people are a community) find such muds tolerable.

I hope that expresses what I meant clearer. I deleted a few explanations to try to make it as clear as possible.

Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 15 2004,23:34) Should the community tolerate muds that discriminate?

What exactly do you mean by that?

Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 16 2004,00:57) ...but instead I'm asking do people (a group of people are a community)  find such muds tolerable.

Oh.  Yes.  In fact I've even sought out muds that did specifically discriminate.

[Estarra]

Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 16 2004,00:57) I'm asking do people (a group of people are a community)  find such muds [that discriminate] tolerable.

I have absolute no idea, but I sure hope not!

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Mar. 16 2004,06:57) Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 15 2004,23:34) Should the community tolerate muds that discriminate? What exactly do you mean by that?

I think he's asking whether or not the mud community should discriminate against muds that discriminate...

[Iluvatar]

Discrimination is a seriously sad word used to exclude some particular category of person or preference for a thing and it really relates to degree in my opinion. I dislike ham but I cooked it for the holidays and I discriminate against anything that contains ham. I dislike cheaters and I openly discriminate against them anywhere I find them.

When it comes to comes to mudding, we're all equal in how we display on the monitor regardless of all those small-minded, silly labels the world places on us. It's how a person behaves and comports themselves that dictates how we respect them and that has to have the most weight on a case-by-case basis.

I've had players freak about "oh, player X is gay, let's beat him up" or things relative to color but I've managed to consign them to senseless oblivion before it became a contagion.

With so many muds in the world, I expect there are some discriminatory ones and I've not personally found one. It doesn't matter, I would hate them and I promise they would hate me.

Hmm, I wonder if there's a Thelemic Order of the Golden Dawn mud?

[FrankyB]

Discrimination is what muds are based on. You have racial cities, clans and in some places even equipment that can only be used by elves, dwarves or whoever. Surely this is discriminatory? How about muds that restrict marriage to monogamy - is that what you mean? I currently play one where there is no stigma to male characters who marry another male character but it is still a one-to-one thing.

Or do you mean harrasment based on a player's RL attributes? I would not stand for any kind of harrasment on my mud. Life's too short for that kind of stuff.



But then I guess you're not talking about in-character discrimination, are you?

[Jazuela]

How would the community of a game know who the player is, other than their IP address and possibly their city/state/country?

And even those can be masked.

Unless I went out and told people that I'm a Muslim homosexual trans-gender female quadraplegic black man, ain't nobody gonna know.

And if I really -was- such a thing, I probably wouldn't play a game that advertised itself as being against any or all of the above. But I don't know of any games that advertise themselves as such.

I know there are some christian-based muds out there, but I don't recall them ever mentioning that non-christians are not welcome to play. Only that the theme of the game is christian-based, and that non-christians might be welcome as long as they are prepared to accept this.

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Mar. 16 2004,03:26) I think he's asking whether or not the mud community should discriminate against muds that discriminate...

Ah... like that Armegeddon mud in his .sig.  This may shock you, and I was stunned myself, but they actually discriminate against those who think roleplay is a bunch of crap.  They won't even tolerate non-roleplayers.  Should the *makes quote sign with fingers*mud community *makes quote sign with  fingers* tolerate them?

Note: I actually discriminate against people who do that *quote sign with fingers* thing when they talk.  But I'm learning to be more tolerant.

[Gemini]

people, i think your all looking to deep into this. They arent talking about discrimanting againt people who are trolls on a game(i get that all the time), or are bards, or whatever.
if someone says, on a global channel: "Death to all __ could be any derogitory term that might refer to black people, jews, homosexual people, or a million other things.
The immortal staff on my mud wont put up with that in any way, and I personally fully back them on that. but what do the rest of you think of that?

Originally Posted by (Gemini @ Mar. 17 2004,02:28) if someone says, on a global channel: "Death to all !", would you do anything about it. ____ could be any derogitory term that might refer to black people, jews, homosexual people, or a million other things.

Death to all twinks, munchkins, and smurfs!

[Eagleon]

And jaywalkers. Don't forget jaywakers.

I want to find a MUD that has a rule against Muslim homosexual trans-gender female quadraplegic black men, and then pretend to be one. That sounds hella fun. I have never actually encountered a MUD that discriminated in any official way against non-relevant RL information, though. How many of these are out there?

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Eagleon @ Mar. 17 2004,13:37) And jaywalkers. Don't forget jaywakers. I want to find a MUD that has a rule against Muslim homosexual trans-gender female quadraplegic black men, and then pretend to be one. That sounds hella fun. I have never actually encountered a MUD that discriminated in any official way against non-relevant RL information, though. How many of these are out there?

Sorry pal, I already got the copyright on the whole Muslim trans-gender homosexual female quadraplegic black man thing. You can be my Jehovah's witness trans-gender bisexual male blind and deaf oriental girlfriend though if you want.

[Eagleon]

It's all good. ^.^

Originally Posted by (Eagleon @ Mar. 17 2004,13:37) And jaywalkers. Don't forget jaywakers. I want to find a MUD that has a rule against Muslim homosexual trans-gender female quadraplegic black men, and then pretend to be one. That sounds hella fun. I have never actually encountered a MUD that discriminated in any official way against non-relevant RL information, though. How many of these are out there?

There are loads of them.  You see there's this list of groups you can't  harrass and discriminate against.  If you're not on the list, you're fair game.  You'll know who is on the list by how many times they were listed as examples in this thread.  

I saw this thread despite the poster's claims to the contrary as a call to action, a trial balloon if you will, to see how many of you all are interested in CENSORING and SANCTIONING other's people's muds because of how they choose to run it.

It's a stupid thread.  I feel dirty now that I've participated on it.

[Gemini]

wow, this has gone horribly off topic and gotten horribly lame. this is a serious issue, care to stick with it, people?

[Acies]

How can a mud discriminate? there's no way I can tell what color/sex/age you are if everything is text? the only way I can tell is if you tell me, and for all I know you could be lieing. sure mudders can be rasists and such, but an entire mud can't discriminate.

[John]

Originally Posted by Iluvatar wrote: I've had players freak about "oh, player X is gay, let's beat him up" or things relative to color but I've managed to consign them to senseless oblivion before it became a contagion.

I'm talking about muds where such behaviour is encouraged, not discouraged Is that morally wrong?

It is possible for people to discriminate, problem is most people simlpy don't see it as discrimination.

Let's say I have proof that on my mud black people tend to cheat more then white people. Would it be wrong for me to discriminate against black people in my mud? Let's ignore the fact it's nearly impossible for me to gain such knowledge and it would be nearly impossible for me to then discriminate against black people on my mud. Let's just say I do have such knowledge and that I can discriminate against black people. Such as by not letting them play at all, not even letting them make a character cause they're black and I have data that shows most of them are cheaters.

Is it wrong for me to do so?

Originally Posted by Tyche wrote: I saw this thread despite the poster's claims to the contrary as a call to action, a trial balloon if you will, to see how many of you all are interested in CENSORING and SANCTIONING other's people's muds because of how they choose to run it.

Your free to think that's what this thread is about, but in truth it's really just to see how people respond, what they think of the issue and how their logic works.

I like to discuss things. I come to discussion boards to do this. I like to see what people think on an issue and why they think it.