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#21 |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,408
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
Hate to change the topic slightly, but it really grates me when people call RPI or RPEI acronymns. They aren't in the true form of the word. They are initials (or if you want to be technical initialisms). An acronymn is a pronouncable word (like MUD) not RPI or FBI, etc.
Secondly, I once wrote a short definision on the difference between the RP and Non RP muds and here it is: ------------------------ A. Roleplay mud: Each character is unique. It acts, reacts, and makes choices based on the character and its surroundings. B. Any other type of mud: You may go in and out of character at any time. Talk about life, dinner, football, or the base roll of your weapon within the game environment. There are pros and cons to both systems, it is a matter of choice. Whether a game is type A or Type B is dependant more upon the playerbase than the game system. The term Hack and Slash doesn't necessarily define that it is not a roleplay game, but rather that the focus of the game is about killing and leveling vs. character interaction. Nearly every roleplay mud, and I would go as far as to say every roleplay mud (unless it is a non combatative MUSH) can be turned into hack and slash by virtue of the player's choices. ------------------------ This whole argument over RPI, RPEI, and on is silly in the extreme and comes from people trying to call their mud better or elitist. There would be no other reason for it. I started this thread as a parody as a better way to show how comical it can become. Now quit arguing and get out there and have some fun! |
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#22 | |
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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No doubt there are some who use the term RPI to denote some form of superiority however that would be as historically inaccurate a use of the term as suggesting it was created out of some sense of elitism. It would be like someone calling a motorcycle a mini-van and then taking offense and accusing mini-van manufacturers of elitism for objecting to the inaccurate use of the term. But if half the motorcycle dealerships started calling their bikes mini-vans, can you imagine how frustrating it would be for people honestly trying to buy a mini-van? Can you see how frustrating it would be for mini-van dealers if people started showing up and asking them why their mini-vans had four tires instead of two? Just as a mini-van and a motorcycle are sufficiently different to warrant different terms to describe their characteristics, so too do RPI MUDs differ from other kinds of MUDs and assorted text-based games. Jason |
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#23 | |
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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#24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
ROFL! Says the guy who claims that anything other than an RPI is a "normal MUD". Funny, funny. They're not an RPI, so they should all be lumped into the same category.
And you guys wonder where the elitism stamp comes from! Seriously, I doubt anyone created the term RPI to be elitist. It's just evolved to that. RPI, like just about everything else, has gone through growing pains to be what they are now. |
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#25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
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Posts: 653
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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A mini-van has more than 4 seats. A mini-van has removable seats. A mini-van runs on 4 wheels. A mini-van has a standard car engine. Of course a mini-van dealer would be offended if someone claimed a motorcycle was a mini-van. However, say like I create a van that's smaller than standard vans but bigger and longer than mini-vans. It also has 4 wheels, it also has removable seats, and it also has a standard car engine. It also has a cup-holder for every seat. It has a built in TV, and it has Bose surround sound stereo systems. They've however, removed the sliding doors and the regular doors and replaced them with cool Lamborghini-like doors, because that would be totally cool mini-vaness. Then I chose to call my van a Mini-Van Elite, aka as the MVE. Then, I go ape-bonkers if ANYONE tried to categorize my MVE as a mini-van, or anyone tries to categorize their mini-vans as an MVE. Then, Mercedes makes a mini-van that has everything my mini-van has but they make it with the cool Mercedes logo and a few extra gee-gaws. Well, I'll allow them to call their van an MVE. Wait a minute. Ford has a mini-van with at least 75% of my features, but I don't like the people who drive Ford cars. I'm SURE Ford's vans simply just can't be as good as mine. They CANNOT use the MVE term. Ford asks me what they have to do in order to use the MVE stamp on their mini-vans. I reply with vague instructions such as "Make a van with more luxury features." Ford asks, "What luxury features?" I reply, "Maybe some more cupholders." Ford says, "Our drivers don't like more cupholders." I reply with, "I guess your drivers shouldn't drive an MVE." Ford tries again by trying to find the industry standard for an MVE. Ford can't find one. I still insist that it is an exclusive standard for luxury mini-vans, but I never produce a list of what an MVE is. MVE drivers just know what an MVE is and find it incredibly frustrating that others do not. Now, I could resolve this simply by issuing a precise guide to what an MVE is, but instead of doing that, I write up something like: MVE You must be a mini-van. You must have lots of luxury upgrades. All features must be designed towards luxury. Then some MVE owners go around telling the world that MVE are the best cars. Everything else is a normal car. Can you see how frustrating that might be for the people who make mini-vans, and people who drive mini-vans? Can you start to see how this might seem like a "club" and not a standard? Seriously, I have no vested interested in what anyone does with the term RPI, especially not the administrators of those muds. I think I wouldn't be involved at all if I didn't find it quite ludicrous that a player thinks he wants an RPI but gets ridiculed for thinking he wants one because of his preferences. The person didn't seem to take offense, though, so no harm, no foul! Don't take me too seriously, though, Prof. I admire that you are at least TRYING to create a specific standard that is so much less vague that what others have posted. RPI Muds could benefit a lot from sitting down and figuring out what they are in a way that can be communicated to the rest of the mudding world. Until then, RPI is just going to seem like a confusing list of personal preferences rather than an industry standard to me. I'm totally down with that, too! |
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#26 | |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,408
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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#27 |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,253
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
I was going to post, but I can't add anything more than Mina's last post.
That was awesome. |
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#28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 846
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
Dodge Tomahawk motorcycle concept car in review
Add a sidecar and let a friend sit on the handlebars, and you've got a mini-van. According to your criteria. Car engine: check. 4 wheels: check removable seats: check. more than 4 seats: check. Then there's also the Handi-Van bus that has all the above, but is -also- not a minivan. And how about most SUVs on the market these days? They have every one of those criteria, and are not minivans. And of course normal-sized vans meet all those criteria, and are also not mini-vans. THen, there's the mini-vans that don't have car engines. Does that mean they're -not- mini-vans? Or what about the ones that don't have removeable seats? Maybe they have seats that are moveable..they slide back to give more room in the middle, or fold down to make a back-seat-bench..but the seats themselves can't be taken out of the vehicle. Does that mean they're not mini-vans? Thing is, RPIs all come with certain criteria, and also have any of a list of other criteria. At least a couple, not necessarily all. Non-RPIs are not required to come with that initial criteria, and may or may not include any, let alone some, or all, of the additional criteria. For example, and RPI will have permanent death. Now, that doesn't mean that any game with permanent death is an RPI. But if it doesn't have permanent death, then it won't be an RPI. It will be something else. Does that make the RPI a better game? Not for anyone who doesn't want their characters to die. In fact I'd say the vast majority of gamers would scoff at a permanent-death game, and some might even say that no one in their right mind would ever play one. So who in that case is the elitist, I wonder? The people who like the permanent death RPI, or the people who reject the idea of permanent death and make fun of anyone who likes it? |
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#29 | |
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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He was simply saying that you can't and shouldn't call a normal stock DIKU/ROM/CIRCLE an RPI Mud. Why? Because there ARE standards for RPI muds. There is an entire website dedicated to RPI's. RPIMUD Network @ RPIMUD.com. There have been numerous discussions on what an RPI is, and the huge difference between an RPI and a normal "run of the mill" mud. These include: Permanent death, descriptions instead of names (short descs, main descs, long descs). A background for your character. An account system. A highly innovative emote system where you can target many different grammatical forms to a fellow player. Roleplaying enforced obviously. And the list goes on for several other things, but these are the main ones. Your long-winded rant about the mini-van/motorcycle analogy means nothing, that's not the point of the analogy. If you call a stock DIKU mud an RPI you're going to be a laughing stock amongst serious RPI mud players. Period. That's all I have to say on the matter for now. -D |
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#30 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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![]() But I also want to point out that a van is not required to have removable seats! Quote:
Permadeath might not make an RPI mud, but permadeath, enforced-RP, and permitting hobbits might! Of course RPI muds aren't going to be cookie cutter and have ONLY the the same features. The point is... what makes an RPI mud an RPI mud? The scoffer is the person who is being elitist. I don't like permadeath for myself, but I can intellectually understand why someone might. Making fun of permadeath simply because one wouldn't play it is also elitism. However, insisting that permadeath is the ONLY way to play and all muds that do not have permadeath has unrealistic and un-immersive RP is also elitism. Putting down someone's playing preferences in order to tout your own is pretty much a form of elitism in my book. |
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#31 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,253
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
Jaz: You realize you actually made Mina's point for her with your examples, right? An inexplicit standard is of no use to anyone, and certainly isn't a "standard." And furthermore, nobody has the right to get huffy if people "misuse" a category that is incredibly amorphous and generic.
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![]() I don't know. But didn't you call all the other ones "2 dimensional." And then there is the silly guy in this forum who lumps all the other muds that aren't RPIs into a the "stock DIKU" category. I'd reply to him directly, but every time I hit quote I just laugh too hard. I can't tell if he is serious or if he is just creating a parody of the snooty, RPI elitism we've all seen on these forums a million times in the past. |
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#32 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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I'm sorry that my analogy was obviously too hard for you to comprehend. I shall endeavor to make things easier for you in my next posts. All others who understood me... well, you're pure geniuses! (Especially Jaz who took the time to point out where my examples where wrong!) Quote:
permanent death - not listed under "What Seperates an RPIMUD from a Regular MUD?" descriptions for characters instead of names - also not listed there background for your character - also not listed account system - definitely not listed highly inno... nevermind, not listed! Actually, not a single thing you've listed is on that site which barely touches on the RP one might expect to find on RPIs. (Maybe it's in the forums, but that could be any random joe posting. It's NOT on the actual site.) In addition, several of the muds listed on that site are NOT RPI and do not fit the RPI criteria. Attempts to remove them have been met with an onslaught of accusations. I recommend you actually READ the site and what it says before you start discussing what you THINK it says. The whole point of this discussion is because there IS no such list, and the RPIs seem extremely reluctant to make the list. (For what reason, I don't know.) They just slap up some vague terms that leave way too much room for certain muds to rock the RPI tag because no one knows what the heck it's supposed to be except RPI players. (I'll bet you, though, that the players who play RPI even if they're not really RPI think they're on an actual RPI! How's that for confusing?) You also mention only stock DIKU/ROM/CIRCLE muds. Seriously, do you really think that ALL other muds are stock DIKU/ROM/CIRCLE? Let me inform you that they most DEFINITELY are not. You obviously are out of touch with the RPI discussions, and you're so quick to get defensive and attack that you really haven't bothered to read what's already been posted. Perhaps the analogy is actually apt, and it's touched a sore spot. ![]() |
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#33 |
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
Well I started a new thread and listed what I think defines an RPI mud. We can continue this debate there.
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#34 | |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,408
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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This entire thread I created to prove that anyone could decide at anytime to make a personal tag for their own mud and call it "Roleplay Whatever" as long as it sounded better than just Roleplay Mud. The point was clear before, and remains clear RPI is a id tag to define one or two games that have features unlike others. The comments about "Run of the Mill" likely is the cause for other Admin calling you on the carpet about your silly definitions. |
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#35 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 213
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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So not so simple. An entire website! Wow! Now THAT is impressive! I could care less what terms people use to describe their games. I do find the whole attitude expressed here by some posters as silly. It is all text, numbers and methods for presenting, saving and reading information. |
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#36 | |
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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So, it's not a matter of me listing my preferences or anyone else doing likewise. Preferences are irrelevant. The most accurate criteria for the term RPI can simply be determined by looking at the three MUDs that the term was originally applied and noting the characteristics shared by all three (excluding silly superficial similarities such as "they all have the letters n and r in their name" which, while true, has no bearing on the games themselves). It was those shared aspects which inspired the term, not personal preferences, an attempt at elitism, some subjective standard of quality, or any attempt to belittle other types of games. There are clear similarities which all of them possessed and which newer games, at least one using its own independently-derived codebase, possess. Then there are games using the term RPI which do not... My own reasoning for the term RPO was that there were several games which possessed many elements similar to the group of characteristics shared by those three original RPIs and yet did not possess all. One might not have permadeath, another might have global OOC channels, and yet another might have visible player identities. All of them had adopted the term RPI without adopting all of the characteristics to which that term originally applied. It wouldn't be fair to classify them alongside games which were nothing more than H&S code with an enforced-RP policy as they were clearly different. But the range of similarities and differences was by no means standard across the board. If the term RPI were extended to include any one of them, it would be at the expense of ignoring at least one characteristic shared by the original RPIs and would result in excluding another game which possessed that characteristic but not another. A simplified example: Charateristics: A, B, C, D, E MUD #1 (original RPI) possesses: A, B, C, D, E MUD #2 (original RPI) possesses: A, B, C, D, E MUD #3 (original RPI) possesses: A, B, C, D, E MUD #4 possesses: A, B, C, D MUD #5 possesses: A, C, D, E MUD #6 possesses: A, B, D, E MUD #7 possesses: A, B, C, E MUD #8 possesses: A, B, D 50 or so other MUDs possess: A The last five examples all contain at least three characteristics shared with the first three. None however possess all five. Additionally, the only characteristic all five games share with the first three games is also shared by 50 other games which possess none of the other four. How, then to classify MUDs #4-8? I did "lump them together" but not as a means of derision. Quite the opposite. It was an attempt to denote that they share some features of RPI even though they do not possess all the characteristics shared by the original three to which the term was applied. So, I'll firmly accept that RPO is a flawed term which isn't very accurate. But it's not an attempt at elitism either. RPI, on the other hand, is more accurate if one looks at the shared features found in the three original games to which the term was applied. Then examine every MUD calling themselves RPI and you will find there are several which also share these same characteristics. With one exception, they're all derived from the code of the original three but it is that exception which proves that the term need not refer only to that code family and doing so would ignore that one of the original three also did not share the same code evolution. But the vast majority do not. These games are not RPI. It's really not a hard thing to do. Most of the controversy seems to stem from personalizing the arguments ("you're elitist" or "you're inferior") rather than simply looking at the facts. I might add that I personally don't care for every RPI (see my comments in the thread about what will make a player NOT play a MUD). That's personal preference. But it's not a factor in saying that they are or are not a RPI MUD. Take care, Jason ****ed because a button just popped off his shirt when he snagged something on it...I'm too thin to be popping buttons off my clothing! |
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#37 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
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Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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I don't honestly care if RPI people WANT to be elitist or not. I only point out that some of the statements made by RPI players give them an extremely elitist image. Frankly, your intent does not really matter when it comes to creating a reputation. If you're going to say, "Well, to define an RPI, you need to look at these three games." then you guys just formed a club, not a standard. Quote:
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#38 | |||||
Senior Member
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
I have tried for years to determine from where or whom the term RPI was created. I have not been able to single out a particular name or even a particular MUD. It was definitely not a deliberate "club of three" MUDs or individuals or anything that said, "We/This is an RPI." The term began to fall into use to describe three different MUDs, all of which possessed similar characteristics but I've not seen any evidence that it was the result of any cooperative decision.
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But if you must know, much of what is being listed in Delerak's thread is spot on. I may chime in at some point with some points but for now I'm just watching because personally I'm sick of being accused of this or that. Take care, Jason |
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#39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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You can claim that you are being accused of elitism if you wish, but pointing out that something smacks of elitism doesn't necessarily mean that YOU are an elitist. If you do not wish to come off as an elitist, which seems like a big concern to you, isn't good for someone to point out what statements they find elitist and attempt to explain them? No one has actually simply said, "You're an elitist. Away with you!" Multiple attempts have been made to state why this APPEARS to be elitist, which, I think, is much different from saying it and writing you off as a snob. I think, honestly, that's what is preventing you from getting any of my points. You can't wish away the fact that something has created an elitist perception for itself simply by believing yourself to not BE elitist. Personally, I don't try to discuss anything with snobs. Obviously, I don't think you're a snob, but that's not going to stop me from saying, "Well, that sounds kinda elitist." And honestly, if you're a bit of a snob about the games you chose to play, you obviously just believe you've picked the quality product. (I, for one, a total anti-WoW snob.) |
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#40 | |||
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Re: RPEI, The New RP Standard
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However, if you prefer, I'll post some points on Delerak's thread. I have noted a couple things which don't completely jive. ![]() Take care, Jason Last edited by prof1515 : 03-14-2008 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Typo on the [/quote] |
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