[prof1515]

[malaclypse]

To RikeDeJeanVonLe: I think the reason why numbers are typically removed from Role-play heavy games is that it is an easy fiction-breaker to remove.

Most newbies to the game are going to be looking around for cues as to how to act. Hopefully they'll pick up good habits from the existing players, but this is often to much to hope for. So instead you must present it to them via the code. If they see 5/5hp 5/5mp at every prompt, they're going to start developing dependencies on numbers right away.

If they're worrying about numbers they are going to be much less immersed than the person who is worrying about how the character is behaving.

To address prof1515's issues with ooc channels: I have to say I agree with OnyxFlame on this one. As long as the ooc channels can be toggled on or off, I think its a highly beneficial feature for a game. It builds community, as well as keeps players from leaving your game to go chat somewhere else. Everybody, every once in a while, wants to just relax and chat. And this is especially true for the players who have been with a game for the longest, and these also tend to be the most valuable players for a game to have.

-Ryan

[OnyxFlame]

Actually I'm not talking about ooc channels, I'm talking about an ooc command that works like say: only those in the same room can hear the ooc comment. I don't think I'd go for ooc channels either, they'd just degenerate into total crap. But as long as it's a local ooc thing, if you don't wanna hear it all you gotta do is move, or ask the people having the ooc convo to do so.

[Estarra]

What a neat idea! You could have a command for players to toggle OOC on/off so even if they're in the same room, they won't hear the OOC comment.

[Ogma]

Hmm...that is a good idea. I think I'll do that.

[Estarra]

Ogma, would you let us know the player response to it?

[Songsworn_Draconita]

If you aren't already using it for some other purpose, maybe a whisper command would be a good idea. For example, the syntax used in the MUD I play is whisper <person> <message>, minus the <>, of course.

[Songsworn_Draconita]

[Songsworn_Draconita]

Oops, sorry for the double post, folks! Not fully used to these boards...

[JilesDM]

Just to clarify a bit. DartMUD has always implemented OOC as behaving in a similar manner to the traditional "say" command as OnyxFlame described it. What Ogma was referring to was allowing players to turn even that off if they wanted to.

re: Songsworn_Draconita
In general, all of our players consider our implementation of OOC to be preferable over global OOC chat channels. Those who do not tend to be newcomers who are having a difficult time learning the game mechanics, though the majority of those eventually reverse their position on the matter after they have become acquainted with our UI.

[OnyxFlame]

DM's "tell" command is also local, except in the case of creators, however it's an IC command. The cool thing is that depending on the hearing of the whisper recipient and the hearing of others in the room, and maybe some other factors, the whisper may be overheard, either as gibberish or in its entirety.

I believe we rather got off the topic though. I just wanted to say that I tried Feudal Realms yesterday (due to DM being dead because of the blackout), and it really annoyed me that it had levels/exp, which you can only get for killing stuff as far as I know. Now I realize this mud is attempting to change to a fully RP system at the moment and I have no idea what changes will be implemented in order to do this, but I think it really destroys the feeling when you hafta kill crap whether you want to or not.

[prof1515]

"...I tried Feudal Realms yesterday...and it really annoyed me that it had levels/exp, which you can only get for killing stuff as far as I know...I think it really destroys the feeling when you hafta kill crap whether you want to or not."--OnyxFlame

Agreed completely, Onyx. Feudal Realms was one of the 800+ MUDs I tried and one of the biggest disappointments. I'll probably give it a try again in a few years, when they've hopefully converted it into a RP MUD without the H&S crap of levels and exp.

It's a classic example of what I was talking about in my original post. F.R. has a nicely developed world, but they've left elements in the game which are ridiculous and contrary to realistic role-playing.

Take care,

Jason

[Kallekins]

I don't mind so much seeing numbers and levels in my score information. It doesn't hurt RP if players will refrain from mentioning the numbers and levels in character. I prefer when the numbers are hidden or transformed into text, although I'd rather see a number than ***DECIMATES***. Gah. I think it would be more difficult to establish a culture of not mentioning that ooc information and then continually training newbies to follow suit, than to just hide or remove the numbers.
Sure people can figure out the formulas and learn what their numbers are, but typically in that process, they realize that it is ooc information, and keep from talking about it ic. Because that is the key. It isn't what your player knows, but how your character behaves. If everyone behaves as if there are no numbers, no levels, then it's all peachy.

The thing that I can't handle in so-called strong RP games is seeing the name of someone I've never met. Nothing kills RP like walking into a room full of strangers and having them say, "Hi Jane Doe!" And really how many times can you startle and stammer, "How did you know my name?" (then go through the ensuing ooc discussion about how they shouldn't know your name, but they think they have some way of knowing it because word gets around) before your character starts to get really paranoid?

[Tavish]

How are the two situations any different?  If you the player know the name of the people in the game that certainly doesnt mean that your character knows the names.  Introduction systems can be a convienience for players to remember with whom the character has come into contact with, but it has never bothered me personally if a game doesn't have it.  

Much the same with numbers, the people I spend most of my time rping with know their exact stats in almost every aspect of their character.   Of course we don't walk around talking about having a strength of 10 or a charisma of 20, but instead use the numbers to mold how we play the characters.

[Geras]

About knowing people's names... In the better RP muds you have a short desc which people see first instead of your name... then there are 3 main system for learning names

Greets: you type 'greet <person>' after they learn your name and they now see you as your codename. Big flaws in this as they wont get any aliases/nicknames you want to go by.

Remembers: My favourite. You type remember <short desc> name when you find out their name icly, or if you dont you cans till remember them as DrunkenMoron or soething like that

Neither: just short descs, remember it yourself (possibly using notepad.

[OnyxFlame]

I don't really care so much if I see numerical representations of my hp/stats/whatever else, what bothers me is that in level based systems you hafta kill stuff to get anywhere. Even if they have to have levels, why can't they at least make you able to gain levels from doing stuff other than killing random monsters? What if I'm playing a healer or a hippie or a total wuss and my char would NOT want to wander around killing stuff? Yet I'd hafta do it anyway, or I'd just be the little puny weakling who everyone bosses around because I suck.

[Kallekins]

The two are different. Both are cases where the player must keep separate what she knows and what her character knows, but in the case of numbers, it is ooc information, while in the case of names, it is ic information. 516 hitpoints is the link between the ic information that he is a big hard to kill brute and the code that determines how much damage he can sustain. The name is your character's name, directly linked to that character.
People can come up with plausible reasons why they might know your name: the bartender told me; I had a dream; You are famous and don't even know it. Stupid...but plausible.
On the other hand, there's no excuse for ic'ly talking about 516 "hitpoints", whatever they are.
And in practice, I've seen that in those rp muds with numbers, most people will not mention them. In those with names, very few make the effort to rp that they don't know.

[Enzo]

I personally find that an all RP mud could be found rather boring occasionally. The mud would have to have a large, and very active immortal staff to monitor the roleplay in case people actually wanted to be stronger and what not. Not everybody is going to be fair if there is no way to monitor your strength, so if you incorporate these kind of things, I feel that roleplay can be much more organized when in comes to battling. It all really depends on what kind of a MUD that you are looking for. If you want one that is all RP, and you don't have to level, or look at your health and what not, then I guess there are those kind out there. If you want one that incorpoates RP and leveling, there are those too. Hack and slashes are always out, so it's just an overall perference.

[SoulTorn]

[Grendal]

Interesting topic

I play in the world of Accursed Lands and we handle the levels in an IC text based way. Levels are still important in an RP mud because we also have crafting & fighting that works hand in hand with the RP.

skill wind instruments
You are roughly above average at wind instruments.

As I'm playing my flute, if someone should ask how good a flute player I am, I am more likely to say...."Do you like my music" ?

But I could also respond based on my skill level.
"I'm roughly above average compared to most people. There are a few new songs I would like to play, but my fingers can't quite find the notes."

We have 26 levels of skill to each skill.

1 know next to nothing about | 14 are getting very good at
2 know very little about | 15 are getting extremely good
3 know a slight amount about | 16 are skilled at
4 know a few things about | 17 are quite skilled at
5 know a decent bit about | 18 are extremely skilled at
6 are beginning to understand | 19 are excellent at
7 are below average at | 20 are wise in the ways of
8 are almost average at | 21 have begun to master
9 are mostly average at | 22 have partially mastered
10 are a bit above average at | 23 are close to mastering
11 are roughly above average at | 24 have mastered
12 are proficient at | 25 have perfected
13 are getting rather good at | 26 know everything about

Having the knowledge of levels lets you know what you are capable of and what you shouldn't attempt.

In crafting you can't start out by forging a great war axe. You will not have any success, because you "know next to nothing" about forging. The levels let you know what items you have a chance to make and as you succeed in making smaller items, your level in the skill increases and then you can attempt to make items that require more skill to create.

Do you want to RP forging a war axe or do you want to actually make one ?

I could emote that I am forging a great war axe, but at the end of the day, I still won't have one.

Those that put time into their character and into their skills can create items that others players might want to buy and this create commerce.

If you have money in the bank, do you want to know how much you have in your account or do you just want to RP it ?