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Old 10-01-2007, 08:14 PM   #561
Xerihae
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

You have still yet to show how the 4/5 option promotes some games at the expense of others. As I stated earlier, looking at it from a player perspective (which I am) it seems to help me find MUDs that accept no form of payment as well as MUDs that have pay-for-perks if I want them, without having to trawl through all the other sorts of options I don't want.

I would also be careful about flinging around accusations attacking groups rather than individuals. Commercial MUD owners are quick enough to decry non-commercial owners when they make blanket statements about commercial games (argh too many uses of the word commercial...) so I suggest you put some consideration into any blanket statements you plan to make.

I support the 4/5 option system and am not a game admin, so am I trying to serve my own personal interests at the expense of others? No. I AM trying to serve my own personal interest in having a system that's more useful to me, but I fail to see how that is at the expense of other people.

As I've said, please point out to me why the proposed system disadvantages anyone except MUD owners who are gaining players through false or misleading information in their listings, something I'm sure we all agree is unacceptable.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:05 PM   #562
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

If you re-read the thread you'll see plenty of threads questioning the motives of both sides of the debate that survived this apparent rampant silencing.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:16 PM   #563
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

To the people using or not using the search it doesn't. A better search is good for everyone. Payment information isn't the beginning and end of what makes a better search; it's just a piece.

But it IS a piece.

Respectfully, that's a load of crap that you've decided and perhaps even convinced yourself is true, but isn't backed up by anything other than your saying so. The case for the opposite in this thread isn't overwhelming, but it's greater than nothing.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:36 PM   #564
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

Let's take three MUDs.

MUD A is DragonRealms Premium. It has a mandatory fee of $74.95/month/player, plus additional fees for special events and other perks.
MUD B is Armageddon. They have no fees or perks for sale, but they accept donations to defray the costs of running their game (roughly $1060/yr total, per their website). They explicitly state "Under no circumstances will we sell ... special favors, because of a donation." as policy.
MUD C is New Worlds. They do not accept donations.

Let's say you're a player looking for a game. You're telling me that you will see more in common between A and B, than between B and C? (This is a yes-or-no question.)
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:56 PM   #565
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

Snort! I am most definitely *not* an admin and I damn well do consider there to be a huge difference between games where you can donate/buy stuff like T-shirts, and those that *require* money to be spent for perks or any other sort of advancement, so they idea that this is purely motivated by admins, and that only they care about it is bull.

Seriously though, I can't fracking believe this argument is still going on. If its that big of a deal, just add a disclaimer some place to the effect, "While TMC will, with sufficient proof, make adjustments to the category one is in, these categories are chosen at the option of the individual mud, so may not be 100% accurate in all cases. Some overlap is possible, and perhaps unavoidable, so long as it does not intentionally undermine the spirit of the system."

Or would even that be insufficient to get you people to agree on anything? Its like trying to get radical environmentalists and Halliburton to agree on where we should drill oil wells.
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Old 10-02-2007, 05:05 AM   #566
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

I am a non-admin. The difference between a MUD that accepts donations but gives no reward for them, and a MUD that doesn't accept donations, is, to me, negligible. The difference between a MUD that accepts donations without rewarding them, and a MUD where the vast majority of the game content is inaccessible without substantial payments, is vast.

Every other other non-admin in this thread who has expressed an opinion on this point seems to agree.

Your continual asertion that players are more interested in whether or not money changes hands in any form than they are in what rewards are given when money does change hands is simply not borne out by the observable evidence.

On top of that, even if you were correct in saying that the majority of players only cares about "whether money changes hands" the four-option system makes this unambiguously clear. So, even if you're right, it's still not a valid argument against the four-option system!

Why, therefore, do you keep endlessly repeating it as if it were?

Last edited by shasarak : 10-02-2007 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:33 AM   #567
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

With all due respect, what made you an expert on what players regard as useful information?

I am a non-admin, and I happen to disagree with you. So do several other non-admin, it seems.

As a player only two things are really of interest to me:
1. Do I need to pay to access, or to advance in the game?
2. If payment is optional, does the money that other players pay give them substantial advantages over my own char if I choose not to pay?

I am a very competitive player. I couldn't care less if the admin are selling t-shirts from their website to pay for the server, as long as it doesn't affect my game.
I just don't like the idea of some mediocre twerp kicking my behind in a PvP fight, because he paid 999 $ for a load of practice sessions, or the Sword of Uber Coolness.

Others, I understand, would like exactly that, because they don't have enough free time or enough player skills or whatever to be competitive otherwise. That's fine by me. To each their choice.

The four-box option sums this up very adequately. We can all pick the type of game we like to play from it.

It's hard to understand why this "discussion" is still going on. There have been no new arguments for the last 10 pages or so, just the same old ones being rehashed and refuted repeatedly.
I's getting rather boring.

The only thing that still interests me is what movie Threshold is referring to, and what thas has to do with things.

Last edited by Emil : 10-02-2007 at 07:38 AM. Reason: Typo: wrote 'pay' instead of 'play'. Must be a Freudian slip.
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Old 10-02-2007, 09:02 AM   #568
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

"I'm a player, not an admin."
- It doesn't matter. It's not a survey and if it were, it'd be a completely useless one. Not being an admin doesn't suddenly suggest a lack of vested interest or bias. And yes, I'm a player too.

"You're only saying this because you stand to gain from it."
- It doesn't matter. Same goes for just about anyone posting here. The motivation is irrelevant, just discuss the validity of the posts' content.

I agree with you. The thing is, an alternative example going as:
MUD A offers restrings for 2$ a piece.
MUD B gives donators a personal profile on its website.
MUD C has a subscription fee.

Under the 4/5 system, MUDs A and C would be in one category, while B would be in another.
The system does as much to misrepresent as does the 2 option system, the difference is it misrepresents a different subset of MUDs, hence, I believe, the reluctance of numerous MUD admin to have it implemented.

If a system that properly categorizes these MUDs is suggested and agreed on, I believe there can be a compromise made. Until both sides agree on it, any implementation is going to be something inflicted from one side on the other.
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Old 10-02-2007, 09:14 AM   #569
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Actually, no. MUD A would pick either "Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game" or in the 5 option system possibly "Payment and/or donations required to access some content" if there's no way of getting restrings without paying. MUD C would choose "Payment and/or donations required to play". They would be in different categories, so your example is unfortunately flawed

To clarify:

MUD A - "Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game" AND/OR "Payment and/or donations required to access some content."

MUD B - "Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game."

MUD C - "Payment and/or donations required to play."
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:45 AM   #570
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

As someone who is looking for a MUD to call home, and has tried everything in the top 20 this post, as large as it is took my interest.

Sounds fair. I just tried a MUD that had become 'Free to play' with 'Pay for Perks' and after investing some 6-10 hours in the game (it has a lengthy tutorial period) I got into a proper class.. and then I realised that the gane was FAR from free. Certain classes were only available to those who had paid in excess of $100 which was the first shock. Also the basic skills of the class has many that were locked down, and only available to people who had registered (i.e paid) at least $50 as well as the perks.

Now do not get me wrong, I have NO problems paying for a mud I like, and have invested $1000's in the last ten (12?) years of playing.. but to me FREE TO PLAY means that all skills, abilities and areas that comprise the game world are available to without paying a dime. To me, listing a skill, and then when you get to that level to use it, and then being told you have to pay to use it.. thats not a PERK its a con and a blatent misuse of the word Free. Drag the player in, get them to invest some serious time, and then POW start showing them just how much is buried under RL costs (of course, there is some smooth talking, about how making people pay for the skill stops its abuse, and only players with a vested interest in the game will refrain from abuse.. rubbish)

I like to think in terms of software, we have Freeware, Shareware, Crippleware and demo's. As far as I am concerned this MUD (no names, this is not a personal attack on any one mud, I know there are others) was a demo. NOT free. You want the full product, pay.

The ABC method mentioned is quite good, though I prefer

1) FREE MUD - everything is available without a dime being paid) donations having no REAL game affect, or maybe give you something you can get in game with enough work.. such as IN Game money, experience, access to rare items without the grind, quicker learning
2) FREE with Perks - everything is available to the player, but there are some perks such as houses, political power, positions of power, extra channels to chat on and so on. In other words things that can affect the GAMING world, but not the player character in terms of individual in-game power (extra skills, spells and so on).
3) NOT FREE I.e Classes, Races, Class or Race Skills, Items that are only available with REAL money. These are not perks, but parts of the game that are locked down.. in otherwords.. Shareware or Demo's.

To me, the current MUD that I am trying, is a FREE MUD, you can donate, and these donations help you learn skills slightly faster for a short period of time. There are no other bonuses to be gained with RL cash.

I think the help file in Evarayan Sums up the definition of FREE (help donations) quite nicely

OK, done now, sorry for the rant as my first post
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:54 AM   #571
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Actually, the ABC thing I did was just in reply to the post above my own as an example of how the three hypothetical MUDs he listed would be categorised by the suggested 5-Option system. You can see the full range of options in the
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Old 10-02-2007, 12:01 PM   #572
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Applogies, I did not mean to criticise, I have skimmed over a few thread.. my mistake.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:26 PM   #573
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

Because muds that sell merchandise can pick any category that suits their personal needs or preferences at that time.

It also allows them to claim there is no effect in game, when that is a completely bogus claim.

The problem is that by creating explicit search options, it creates an impression of validity that is simply not legitimate.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:27 PM   #574
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

I dunno. Maybe 11 years of professional work experience in the industry?

The success of my company is a direct reflection of my ability to understand what players regard as interesting and useful.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:46 PM   #575
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

I would expect a MUD that sold merchandise to pick the "no results in-game option". Your claim that it has no results is a bogus claim is... a bogus claim. In certain circumstances yes, unscrupulous admins may favour people who have given them money just like they might favour their friends over random people who've come to the game. Claiming that such is the case in every circumstance is just a convenient blanket statement.

I know for a fact that if I were running a MUD and caught someone cheating, the result would be the same whether they've just joined or have spent £1000 on merchandise. If they tried to say I should cut them some slack because they paid money, I'd laugh. In a non-commercial game holding on to players who continually give money to the game is a lot less of an issue, especially if the admin can already afford the server costs.

It's important for a commercial game to keep its paying customers happy, so I can see why you personally would have that viewpoint. However, don't assume it applies to everyone else just because you feel that way, because no matter what you say I know it would have no bearing on my reactions in said situation. Claiming otherwise, as if I don't know my own mind and morals, I would take as an insult.
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:00 PM   #576
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

Did you just say that your experience is somehow better than the experience of everybody else on this forum?
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:19 PM   #577
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts

While your longstanding success in this field is to be admired, it shows that you understand what your players regard as interesting and useful.

That narrows the field down a bit. I wouldn't recommend overstating beyond that.
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:26 PM   #578
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

People.

Are we still debating about what does "Free" mean. Or are we digressing into personal attacks? How about we lock this forum up soon, because it is getting silly. We now have a poll and over 500 arguments about free and various search systems and we still aren't closer to resolution. If we go a few more months we might match congress in finding a budget.
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:37 PM   #579
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Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts


Thanks for putting that much better than I would have. And really, being able to make a living doing something you love is something to be admired.

The post Brody was replying to was tantamount to saying that since there's a market for Rocky Road and someone could make a living selling Rocky Road, that all anyone could care about in choosing an ice cream was whether it was Rocky Road or not. Anything else is clearly shameless manipulation by twisted purveyors of Mint Chocolate Chip.

The other problem with that logic is that one would have to concede that the creators of commercial graphical MUDs are roughly one million times wiser, since financial success = wisdom, which I don't believe is automatically true.
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:50 PM   #580
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

I for one, would have a problem with your categorization, as I choose not to play games that sell advanced character acceleration, such as faster skill gains, training your skills using purchasable credits etc. The four box system has neat, easily defined categories that separate games with perks from games without perks. The fifth box I see as an extension of those game that fit into category B - Payment rewarded in game. I see categories A and B as somewhat problematic, as people's tresholds to pay for a game are different. The checkboxes I suggest are additional questions to better define categories A and B are for use in addition of the four box system:

Category A - Subscription required to play:

The game subscription fee is

[ ] One time/lump sum payment
[ ] Monthly fee
[ ] Yearly fee
[ ] Weekly fee

Category B - Pay for perks:

[ ] All game content is available without payment/donations
[ ] Character advancement rates can be improved with payment/donations

The wording of the sub-options needs some work. I can't think of any necessary sub-options for categories C and D.
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