[Anitra]

Hadoryu:
1. Sigh. Here we go again.
If it isn't the_logos targetting Carrion Fields to dilute the thread, it's some other IRE affiliate. Let me direct you once again to the three criteria below.

2. As has already been explained several times in this and other threads, most free muds have a definite problem making themselves visible, because:
a) There are over 1000 free muds listed here and on TMC, of which only a small percentage are high quality, non-stock, long-term projects, which in turn makes it hard for these quality FREE muds to stand out against the grey mass.
b) FREE muds don't have the funds for plastering their banners all over the Mud realated sites like the commercial Muds do. In addition to this they have to compete with commercial muds like the IRE games painting themselves out as 'free', which probably nets a fair amount of unsuspecting new players, or IRE wouldn't be so aggressive about keeping the label.

And, as KaVir already pointed out, nobody has suggested that the FREE muds would leave TMS or TMC, only an additional resource, centered around them.

And since the thread got spammed - AGAIN - a couple of pages, here is the list again, with The Dragon's Den included, (sorry about that).

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 -
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 -
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 -
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 -
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 -
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 -
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 -
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 -
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 -
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 -
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 -
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 -
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 -
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 -
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 -
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 -
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 -
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 -
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 -
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 -
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 -
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 -
The Dragon's Den - dden.discordia.org:2222 -
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 -
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 -
Unwritten legends - -
Zebedee - -

[Hadoryu]

I was asked, so I answered. Was I supposed to do something else? I have no problem with CF being on the list, it make no difference to me.

Isn't this the entire point in TMS? To rank the higher quality most popular MUDs the highest? You already have precisely the list that makes the higher quality MUDs stand out.

IRE can't 'net' a player who doesn't want to play a pay-for-perks game. And once again, do you actually know if banners are a bigger incentive to play than the lower cost?

[KaVir]

Because it's already available to both the commercial and the non-commercial muds.  Commercial muds can also afford large banners and paid adverts.  This proposal is to give the non-commercial muds their own additional advertising option.

Well the fact that the commercial muds tend to have far more players than the non-commercial muds is a bit of a giveaway.

However you're making two assumptions of your own.  Firstly, you're assuming that having a cost is a negative influence, yet every time the subject of pay-for-perks/play arises there are plenty of people saying that they prefer that option.  Secondly, you're assuming that this proposal needs to be justified or somehow balanced out against paid advertising - it doesn't, any more than the commercial muds should have to justify buying banner space.

[Hadoryu]

I can see the additional advertising as an advantage to commercial MUDs who can afford it.

The total of the non-commercial MUDs have more players than the total of the commercial MUDs though, don't they? Commercial MUDs either stay afloat or they don't so you'll likely see a tendency for them to commonly have a healthy number of players - it's a prequisite to their existance.

I think generally most players consider having a cost a very negative thing. You'll note they don't say that having a cost is innately an advantage - they say it in relation to that cost providing a higher quality. I'm not discussing under the assumption that non-commercial MUDs are lower quality though.

Secondly, I'm not condemning the effort, I just don't understand the basis and I'm interested in having it explained to me. I'm in no position to judge nor do I wish to. The question for me being, are non-commercial MUDs really placed at a disadvantage to commercial MUDs to warrant some sort of balancing that many people have condemned TMS for not providing?

[Valg]

Please stop derailing Anitra's advertising thread.

Anitra has her criteria, and is talking about starting a new, independent website with a different focus based on those criteria. You are equally welcome to start a new website called "Matt's Proxies", where IRE staff can discuss loyally repeating Matt's methods of derailing advertising threads, and Anitra wouldn't get to decide who can or cannot participate there.

You can say "I'm not condemning the effort", but I guess I don't believe you.

[DonathinFrye]

In a community environment run by someone who seems to pander to those who pay the most in advertising(IRE), when IRE's leader tends to bash non-commercial MUDs and has a very bad reputation for trying to harm the community here outside of his own game - the non profit-turning, 100% Free MUDs deserve the extra advertising.

We have asked, many, many times for Syno to create a choice in the Ranked MUDs list that allows you to seperate the Pay-For-Perks, Pay-to-Play, and 100% Free MUD models, to further improve this MUDing resource site.

We have been ignored, for reasons that we can only(and have already) speculate.

Since this list was not created, we are using the Advertising for Players section of the forum to support the vast majority of the MUDing community that is dedicated towards 100% Free Text-MMORPGs/MUDs, and wants a list of many of those quality games to try out.

I think it is a pretty simple concept, but I hope that spells it out for you. Now let's get back on topic - know any good 100% Free MUDs, Hardoyu?

[KaVir]

Just as the additional advertising proposed here would be an advantage for non-commercial muds.

Hard to say, and I'm not sure what that has to do with this issue.

Quite - but while the crappy commercial muds will die, the crappy non-commercial muds will often just hang around.  If players are looking for free muds, then sure it's better to direct them to the higher quality ones than to let them stumble across the stock ones?

Quality and reliability are two often-cited factors.  But another, particularly in regard to pay-for-perks, is that they like being able to buy things because they don't have the time to play the mud as much as many other players.

I don't think that's the important question.  The important question is: Do enough of the non-commercial mud owners believe that they're at a disadvantage, and do they believe so strongly enough to put aside their differences and do something about it?

[DonathinFrye]

I was discussing it with Anitra and I also like that idea, Nass. It could even be taken further in-time, so that there was an entire resource site dedicated not only to furthering the future of innovative MUDing, but 100% Free MUDs, and also respecting the ethics of the community. While I appreciate the vast resources the other sites give, with joint effort, I am sure that a competing site(competing and co-operative, obviously) could be created that would not "sell out", as many of us feel other sites have.

[Hadoryu]

Valg, you tell me to stop derailing and follow up with a jab? You're not above what you describe, so please spare me.

Donathin, I've done my best to be perfectly respectable during the discussion, maybe you can respond in kind? Your constant attacks on IRE and it's playerbase are anything but justified and quite offensive.

Godwars II is already listed.

That's actually the answer I was interested in as it makes practical sense to me.

[Splork]

Great list Anitra...

Great idea Nass. It would be great to have a site dedicated to 100% free muds. I hope it would have a forum for us to get together and enjoy some civil conversations...If help is needed in this effort, please feel free to get ahold of me.

Everyone here realizes how important advertising is to a mud. It just so happens 99% of free muds simply can't afford it. Our hosting costs alone are near $1,000. Since this is entirely out of the creator's pockets, spending money on advertising is not really an option for us hobbyists.

[DonathinFrye]

Anitra and I were speaking further on the matter;

The one thing I would tread cautiously with(not for any reason of distrust, merely principle) is affiliating the new resource site to a MUD itself. Perhaps an independent and respected forum (like MudLabs for instance) could join and affiliate with the resource site. If KaVir had any suggestions or wanted to get involved, we would need a staff and group of non-commercial developers to take various responsibilities and make sure that we set any differences aside to make a difference in the community of Free MUDing.

Until something along that line is ironed out(and planned carefully so that it can compete/co-operate with TMC/TMS/MudMagic and not fail), let's continue updating and improving the quality of our list. Keep up the good ideas, though, everyone.

[DonathinFrye]

Mafia Life is also free, if I'm not mistaken, and popular on the TMS site. I've never played it personally, but know a few players who enjoy its mafia-esque environment very much.

[the_logos]

Like Carrion Fields, Mafia Life sells things on their website to pay for their costs. I mention it because Antira described the MUDs she wanted to list as MUDs in which the server fees are paid out of the admins own pockets, on the starting post of this thread.

--matt

[Valg]

Try to keep up, Matt. Anitra has clarified her position on this repeatedly.

[Anitra]

I actually just went in and edited my first post.

Maybe that will stop the_logos from telling me what my intentions are with the list. It's funny in a way that he still should claim to have this insight in my brain, even after I've clarified my position several times.

But anything is good as an excuse to derail a thread that he doesn't like, I suppose.

By the way, here are the criteria and the list again, for those who don't like to wade through pages of trolling.

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 -
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 -
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 -
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 -
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 -
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 -
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 -
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 -
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 -
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 -
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 -
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 -
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 -
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 -
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 -
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 -
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 -
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 -
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 -
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 -
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 -
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 -
The Dragon's Den - dden.discordia.org:2222 -
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 -
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 -
Unwritten legends - -
Zebedee - -

[nass]

Could anyone else who is interested in admining or participating in a website for free muds pop me a mail please, as I've had several already.

My aim is to make it as little work as possible and for it to promote free muds without it having overly close ties to any particular mud or promoting one free mud more so than any others.

Cheers

Nass

[Crystal]

[Valg]

[Valg]

Small error: The URL for Clandestine is:

The one given above doesn't work, at least for me.

[DonathinFrye]

Thanks Valq - I meant to make that post last night and was just too delirious after too many postings in one day. That's the right address for Clandestine's website url.