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Old 10-28-2003, 12:24 AM   #61
Deathwing
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I second the above poster's sentiment...Is there any reason why you had to post this again? It's already been made quite clear what the issue(s) are, and I assume the people that run TopMudSites know what's going on- if something's to be done with their site, they will do it.

It makes it seem like you're annoyed that Aard hasn't been banned yet, so you're just going to keep bringing the issue up until you get what you want.

And if that were to happen....I paraphrase Inigo Montoya- I do not think these rankings mean as much as you think they mean. Aard got along just fine without them for almost 7 years.
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Old 10-28-2003, 01:44 AM   #62
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Old 10-28-2003, 03:38 AM   #63
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Um.. I have read all the previous posts in this thread as well as (I believe I made clear in a previous post) at least four (4) other threads regarding the DIKU license on this site.  There was no such thread posted which leads me to alter my opinion as to the the legality of said license..  I fail to see how the license aims to restrict donations of any kind.  Futhermore I have failed to find a post in which there is a correlation between another mud that had been banned and Aardwolf.  Insofar as the what the INTENT of the license states I'm afraid that I cannot reply as I did not recieve a copy of the INTENT of the license with my DIKU source code..  If that should have been included I would urge the "mud community" and "the people that actively tries to enforce it" to contact sites which distribute this source code and inform them that they should also include a copy of this INTENT.  I am thankfull that I found this forum otherwise I would just have taken the license at face value. AKA do not "profit" and do not sell the source code.  

Aardwolf did no such thing.  And I would futhermore have to say that this would be a difficult thing to do in the first place as I would assume that the Aardwolf obtained the same package of source code and documents completely devoid of the "IMPLIED INTENT" documentation.  Again I would have to encourage that action be taken against these sites which are supplying the souce code distribution without this vital "license clarifying" documentation.

Thus i fail to see implications regarding my distribution to be anymore than assumptions.  I believe that we all know the quote "When you assume..."  Also you cannot interpret a license..  This is a fact..  Which is odd considering how many threads have been run regarding it's interpretation.. hmm..  A license will only mean what it says, nothing more and nothing less.. Sorry again..

Or I guess any such meeting to determine what this vague license means.. (that would be helpfull too)

Until then please respond to sections which you quote in regards to the text you quote..
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Old 10-28-2003, 03:41 AM   #64
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Old 10-30-2003, 11:17 AM   #65
 
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Neither have I.  You are quite correct.  There is no such thing as gross profit.
 
Old 10-30-2003, 11:56 AM   #66
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But I ask, does "profit without considering expenses" fall under the category of "profit in any possible way"?

I guess it depends on your take on "any possible", really. Remembering that "possible" and "probable" are distinct concepts.
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Old 10-30-2003, 12:06 PM   #67
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gah!

Yes. We have established the intent of the liscencers and the liscence are two seperate things.
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Old 10-30-2003, 12:10 PM   #68
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Then why does the Internal Revenue Service tell you how to calculate it?

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Old 10-31-2003, 12:53 AM   #69
 
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I guess I'm wrong.   I've never seen the term on a P&L statement, only profit before taxes and profit after taxes. And the difference between the two according to the IRS is that gross profit is revenue minus expenses, and net profit is revenue minus expenses minus taxes.  

Which leaves one to ponder just where does one get the notion that gross profit is revenue without taking into account expenses as has been floated on these threads?
 
Old 10-31-2003, 01:01 AM   #70
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I asked my boss, who is the CFO of NuGenesis Technologies Corporation ( No, you haven't heard of it... unless you are an in a pharmaceutical company )... gross profit is unquestionably revenue minus cost of sales... which is material cost, not payroll ( outside of services... payroll for system engineers ( installation, validation, training, consulting ) , for example, counts as cost of sales, plus any cost taken for resale... CD cases, hardware. ), etc...  Not 'expenses'.  Lots of other expenses are taken into account for net profit that are not cost of sales... pre-sales, advertising, corporate expenses ( finance, adminsitration ), R&D, quality engineering... do I need to go on?

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Old 10-31-2003, 03:23 AM   #71
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Is this thread for real ?

Get a life people - No one is getting rich on Aardwolf by getting donations to cover the bandwidth and relative expenses of running a popular MUD GAME

Yes that's right it is a game.. that people get to enjoy for FREE.  

We are not talking Bill Gates here making million and millions of dollars.

Is the problem that they are on top of this website ranking?

Is the problem that people are given a SMALL thank you in return?

Or is the problem trying to work out the difference between Gross Profit and Net Profit ?

You can have a revenue of $1,000,000 but if your expenses are $1,000,000 there is NO PROFIT
 
Old 10-31-2003, 04:28 AM   #72
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Perhaps from the part in my link which says "You must determine gross profit before you can deduct any business expenses"? Or, as is clarified in even more simple terms :

"Net Profit = Gross Profit - Expenses"

And in response to eclaboussure: The "problem" is that people who violate licenses discourage others from releasing back into the community - and I'm not just talking about the Diku team.
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Old 10-31-2003, 07:51 AM   #73
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If anyone lets what Aardwolf is doing - giving a tiny reward in return for help with server costs - stop them from releasing anything, then I think, frankly, that they shouldn't be in the "community" in the first place. They are not charging to play, they are not blatantly selling powerful items in-game, they are not forcing players to pay to keep powerful items- Only a simple gift that does not affect game balance and which could probably be earned faster without donating is given.

If you can truly say that Aardwolf's activities are on the same scale as those of Vryce, which were pretty much the last nail in the coffin for the Diku team's contributions, then maybe you have a case. But I don't think that can be said.

Maybe if the Diku team hadn't basically vanished from the face of the Earth, things would be different, I don't know. And yes, we could try to email them (again), but is it really our responsibility to force creators to defend their own license?

Maybe we should be debating that instead.
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Old 10-31-2003, 08:00 AM   #74
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Thumbs down

Sorry, I haven't read the latest replies written in here, but some people don't seem to understad why Aardwolf is recieving donations.

The reason for this, is to keep the MUD online, without the donators, Aardwolf wouldn't exist as a mud anymore, at least not as good as it is now, with several hundred people online and no lagging for example. Ok, the license seems to say that money must not be made in any possible way on the codebase.... But does it still apply if money is needed to keep the MUD alive and people playing on it wants to be able to continue doing that? Ok, Aardwolf's donator are given an in-game reward for donating, but that's nothing that non-donators can't get, as Lasher pointed out. And I don't think that the DIKU people even could imagine that something they made could, with some modification, grow so big, as to be forced to recieve money from it's voulenteer players to stay alive.

So please, leave us (Aardwolf) alone! I don't know if the person who started this did it because of jelaousy because somone else has a mud that is much more loved than its own, or whatever, but please don't **** up our loved MUD, AARDWOLF!!

//An addicted and patriotic player of Aarwolf
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Old 10-31-2003, 08:08 AM   #75
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Mud #1> oh we're only going against the DIKU team a "little" bit. And only for a short time.

Mud #2> We're only going against the DIKU team a "little" bit more then Mud #1. If what they do is alright what we're doing is fine.

Mud #3> We're only going against the DIKU team a "little" bit more then Mud #2......etc, etc, etc.
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Old 10-31-2003, 08:35 AM   #76
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The poor man who only steals enough to feed his family is not on the same scale as the professional burgler, but that doesn't mean the poor man should just be ignored.
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Old 10-31-2003, 09:14 AM   #77
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Where did I say anything about ignoring anyone, exactly?

All i'm saying is that what Aardwolf is doing is not anywhere near the scale of Medievia/Vryce's transgressions, and should not be held up as something that would cause people to stop contributing, such as what Vryce did to the Diku team.

Try not to twist my words too much, please.

John:

Again, where exactly did I say that violating the license is a good thing to do? All i'm trying to do is establish a sense of scale here, nothing more. Whether you like it or not, not everything is of the same severity.


I will say yet again, too, that I wonder where the Diku team is in all of this. They haven't spoken out on Aard's donation issue, they don't even seem to be going after Medievia anymore, and as far as I can tell, they haven't spoken out on any donation/license issues in at least 2 or 3 years, if not more. If the license is so important, why are they, the creators, not defending it?
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Old 10-31-2003, 12:45 PM   #78
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KaVir:
More properly, Net profit = Gross profit - Expenses not included when calculating Gross Profit.

(your link in the other thread was actually more clear: gross profit = revenue - cost of goods sold)

Otherwise the calculations you see on the same web page as the definition you quote wouldn't make sense: taken the way you want it to be, the gross profit margin for any business would always be defined to be 100%. It isn't :)

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Old 10-31-2003, 01:42 PM   #79
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I've been lurking and listening to this discussion for a while and wanted to throw in my 2 cents..

just to give a perspective on the 'rewards' that are give to players for donating.. in one hour last night on Aardwolf, I earned 67 quest points.. to get this many qp's from donating, I'd have to send in over 30 dollars..

I'm just trying to point out that any in game reward is really more of a token thank you than anything else.. When I donate to Aardwolf, I do it because I love the game and although I play rather sporadically, I'd hate to come back one day and find it missing, which is what happened last time I found a community I enjoyed.. As a player, I feel that if someone wants to send Aardwolf 100 bucks to get a reward that I can earn in about 3 hours of questing.. then thank god somebody's got that much money to burn.. their donation benefits the mud more than it does their character.

I understand your argument.. but by the time you get to MUD #3 or even MUD #2 in your argument, it'll be pretty obvious that it letter of the license is being broken rather than just the intent.

Garrodyn of Aardwolf
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Old 10-31-2003, 04:14 PM   #80
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Yes, violating the rule just a little bit, a teeny tiny little bit, because it isn't the intent to violate the rule, is all fine and dandy.

Just like being just a little pregnant is..wait. There's no such thing as just a little pregnant. Either you are, or you're not.

Just like you're either breaking a rule, or you're not.

It doesn't matter what the intent is. If a rule says "don't do this," then don't do it. If you do it anyway, then you are breaking a rule.
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