[Ntanel]

Since helping Synozeer launch this bad boy, I stopped MUDding in 2002, I shut down ResortMUD in 2006 and last year switched to MMOs. I ran RM for nearly four years because I did not want to shut it down. I think I logged in to it maybe six times in those four years. On the plus side, I am almost a lawyer now, though I am unsure if I will take that extra step to make it official as it will mean another two years of school.

I am surprised to see this web site up, though I have noticed its numbers have dwindled. Votes are fewer and the forum is no longer bustling. Perhaps it is time for TMS to expand in to graphical gaming, such as MMOs... World of Warcraft, Second Life, Star Trek Online, etc... While the MMO topics would be purely player-side, where MUDders can be both owners and players, perhaps it will provide some revitalization to TMS.

Just an idea.

Ciao!

[Brody]

Welcome back! Not entirely sure expanding to include MMOs does any favors to the site, as there are already a few well-established MMORPG sites out there. But it's worth thinking about.

[Ntanel]

It is where I am right now. MMOs and video games. It surely does not need to be as big as the MUD coverage is, but a simple expansion.

Originally Posted by Brody Welcome back! Not entirely sure expanding to include MMOs does any favors to the site, as there are already a few well-established MMORPG sites out there. But it's worth thinking about.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Ntanel Perhaps it is time for TMS to expand in to graphical gaming, such as MMOs

Yuck. That would be like asking Disney to expand into the porn industry. Alot more money, alot more people, but alot of smut to go with it.

Graphic games are not nearly the same as text games and both warrant huge seperation in genre. Take a look at this thread for more: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ro...ook-movie.html

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Graphic games are not nearly the same as text games and both warrant huge seperation in genre. Take a look at this thread for more: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ro...ook-movie.html

Personally I consider them to be pretty much the same. Or as Raph Koster phrased it in his article Are MUDs and MMORPGs the same thing?, "...in many ways, there are far larger differences between certain kinds of text muds than there are between graphical and text-based games."

IMO the main difference between the two lies not in the server, but in the client. With the right client, an LPMud like yours could be played as a 3D graphical MMORPG - some of your players could even be using such a client right now, and you wouldn't even know unless they told you! Likewise, games like WoW and EQ could be played as text-based muds if someone created an appropriate client for them.

Many modern mud clients support varying degrees of graphics (as well as sound), and the amount of support seems to be increasing, so I think it's inevitable that we're going to see greater use of graphics in muds. And there isn't really any way you can stop your players from seeing graphics, even if you wanted to, because the graphics are handled at the client end. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of your players already have energy bars, a mapper, and so on.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by KaVir Personally I consider them to be pretty much the same. Or as Raph Koster phrased it in his article Are MUDs and MMORPGs the same thing?, "...in many ways, there are far larger differences between certain kinds of text muds than there are between graphical and text-based games."

In this statement you talk about MMORPGs and MUDs which are the same thing. MMORPG=Massive Multi Player Online Role Playing Game which is in affect a MUD. I speak (and I think you do) of Text vs. Graphics, or as I like to relate it to, Book vs. Movie.

Yes, a book can have pictures and a movie can have text (subtitles) but neither overshadows their main genre by utilizing affects of the other genre. A text game relies principaly on descriptive narrative and the player's imagination creates the images. Graphic games rely on graphics, animations, and sound, and the player uses little or no imagination to create images. This is the same as reading a book or watching a movie. The differences are massive and palpable.

I think many Graphic Mud players are coming back toward Text for this very reason. NWA has numerous former "WoW" players who disliked that genre for the very reasons in the paragraph above (amongst other things).

I started out building a MMO Graphic game prior to NWA and am fully aware that the difference in code are minimal in terms of server connection, input and output, but I speak more of content rather than functionality.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Newworlds In this statement you talk about MMORPGs and MUDs which are the same thing. MMORPG=Massive Multi Player Online Role Playing Game which is in affect a MUD. I speak (and I think you do) of Text vs. Graphics, or as I like to relate it to, Book vs. Movie.

Except most of us are server developers, so from our perspective it's more like novel vs screenplay. You can read either (or turn either into a movie), but whereas the novel will describe everything in words, the screenplay relies on a different medium (i.e., the mud client) for many things.

Originally Posted by Newworlds Yes, a book can have pictures and a movie can have text (subtitles) but neither overshadows their main genre by utilizing affects of the other genre.

I would argue that graphic novels are very much like a movie in book form.

Originally Posted by Newworlds I think many Graphic Mud players are coming back toward Text for this very reason.

Quite possibly, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't want any graphics or sound at all. There are many ways to improve the interface without sacrificing the need for imagination, and you may well find some of your players use graphics and sound even if you don't personally like the idea.

Out of curiousity, have you ever asked your players about this? I only recently started asking my players about their client plugins, and was quite surprised - one of them even has a stat bar with a portrait of his character!

[scandum]

I think MUD has become a synonym for a text based multi-user game over the years.

Claiming MUD is an all encompassing term is kind of out there, though it's understandable that Bartle does so for reasons of personal gain as it would make him the granddaddy of modern MMORPGs. A graphical MUD imo is a text game which has additional graphics support.

Expanding this site to include graphical games wouldn't do it much good. Small MMOs would easily blow the current leading MUDs out of the top 10 without even trying, not to mention they'd send more traffic to the site than they get out of it, which is probably why Simutronics doesn't use TMS or TMC, or perhaps it's in their best interest if their playerbase doesn't find out about free alternatives.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by scandum Claiming MUD is an all encompassing term is kind of out there, though it's understandable that Bartle does so for reasons of personal gain as it would make him the granddaddy of modern MMORPGs.

It's not just Bartle, I've heard it from a number of graphical mud developers. For example Raph Koster (lead designer of Ultima Online and chief creative officer of EverQuest II) has frequently made comments like this:

"UO wasn’t inspired solely from the Diku branch of MUD design, the way that most of the other popular MMOs were (EverQuest, for example, was explicitly designed to bring that experience into a 3d world, Brad has said on several occasions)."

And this:

"The Diku gameplay went on to be the inspiration for EverQuest and World of Warcraft, of course, which is why so many mud vets say that they have played that sort of game to death.

Now, was most of this content crap? Yes, undoubtedly. But there were also a lot of really good Dikus, generally heavily customized. The lowering of the barrier to entry here not only created a somewhat horrifying landscape of zombie games shuffling along with the same Midgard starting city and the same bugs, but also essentially birthed the default MMO as we know it today."

Originally Posted by scandum Expanding this site to include graphical games wouldn't do it much good. Small MMOs would easily blow the current leading MUDs out of the top 10 without even trying, not to mention they'd send more traffic to the site than they get out of it, which is probably why Simutronics doesn't use TMS or TMC, or perhaps it's in their best interest if their playerbase doesn't find out about free alternatives.

We already have graphical muds listed on TMS, ranging from browser-based muds such as Archons of Avenshar and Ages of Glory, to games like Revelation with "it's own graphical game client!" that "does NOT use Telnet", or Sociolotron with its "Client software for free D/L on website (100MB)". There's a couple of Skotos games on the graphical list too.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by scandum I think MUD has become a synonym for a text based multi-user game over the years.

Maybe, I've always thought the term completely lame as it refers to Multi User Dungeon which is has its origins in D&D and Dungeon Masters of which father was one and used a university computer to create dungeons long before online MUDs came around.

Originally Posted by scandum Claiming MUD is an all encompassing term is kind of out there...

Again as stated above the term MUD is exactly that. I actually think the term MMORPG is also lame as ORPG is simpler and more astetically pleasing. I mean who walks around asking their friends, "hey man, been to Death Hall? What's that? It's a Massively Multi Player On Line Role Playing Game, dude, or M.M.O.R.P.G. for short. You call that a short acronym? Yeah man, what could be shorter?" LOL. I hang out with alot of gamers and no one says that or uses the term except the people who write articles.

Anyway, I digress. I think the term MUD is a bad and so is MMORPG, so NWA is planning a global campaign soon that uses neither of these terms in a effort to bring in more people to our community. Hopefully this will build up TMS and TMC and even bring many more players to pther games here.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by KaVir Out of curiousity, have you ever asked your players about this? I only recently started asking my players about their client plugins, and was quite surprised - one of them even has a stat bar with a portrait of his character!

Actually I have. I'm old school and use GMUD, but the bulk of our players use CMUD, MUSH, or VipMUD.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Maybe, I've always thought the term completely lame as it refers to Multi User Dungeon which is has its origins in D&D and Dungeon Masters

Actually the name came from a single-player game called "Dungeon".

Originally Posted by Newworlds Anyway, I digress. I think the term MUD is a bad and so is MMORPG, so NWA is planning a global campaign soon that uses neither of these terms in a effort to bring in more people to our community.

Relabelling has been attempted many times before, but I've only seen it succeed twice. The first was when the TinyMUD community decided they no longer wanted to refer to their games as "MUDs", and the second was when the graphical muds decided to call themselves MMORPGs. Rather than bringing in more people, however, they caused schisms that continue to split the community to this day.

Originally Posted by Newworlds Hopefully this will build up TMS and TMC and even bring many more players to pther games here.

Why would new people visit Top Mud sites or The Mudconnector if they were looking for a game that didn't use the term "MUD"?

Originally Posted by Newworlds Actually I have. I'm old school and use GMUD, but the bulk of our players use CMUD, MUSH, or VipMUD.

I did a quick search, and it seems that at least one of your players uses (or is interested in using) a health bar, a character portrait, a map in a miniwindow, a graphical mapper and a kill-counter bar.

Personally I'm pretty old school too - I usually just use my cygwin client. But I think it's pretty cool to see the newer generation of player using more advanced clients, and if it makes their experience in my mud more enjoyable then I'm all in favour of it.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by KaVir Actually the name came from a single-player game called "Dungeon".

Actually I think Wiki-wrong-ia got that one misquoted.

Originally Posted by KaVir Why would new people visit Top Mud sites or The Mudconnector if they were looking for a game that didn't use the term "MUD"?

You will just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by KaVir I did a quick search, and it seems that at least one of your players uses (or is interested in using) a health bar, a character portrait, a map in a miniwindow, a graphical mapper and a kill-counter bar.

One of hundreds? Pfft. One of my players wants machine guns and one wants President Obama to make an appearance too.

[Ntanel]

I enjoy the fact that when I tell people I started on MUDs and then they ask me what that is. After I tell them, they are awe struck. First, they did not think there was anything before the MMO they are playing. Second, MUDs are derviced from BBS. Just like MMORPGs are derived from MUDs. Just like MMOs are derived from MMORPGs. The point is updating with the times. Not arguing virtue over preference.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Ntanel I enjoy the fact that when I tell people I started on MUDs and then they ask me what that is. After I tell them, they are awe struck. First, they did not think there was anything before the MMO they are playing.

Good point. I remember finding the first MUD I ever played after having been a programmer for online services for a few years and been on the internet since junior high and never having heard of MUD and I boggled at the simplicity yet depth of intensity found on a text game. I was a huge fan of graphic games like Ultima and Diablo at the time as well and would never go back to those one dimensional (3D) games.

Awe struck is a good point.

[Ntanel]

I relate it to people who played the original NES/Genesis and learn there was Atari or Collecovision before it.

Originally Posted by Newworlds Good point. I remember finding the first MUD I ever played after having been a programmer for online services for a few years and been on the internet since junior high and never having heard of MUD and I boggled at the simplicity yet depth of intensity found on a text game. I was a huge fan of graphic games like Ultima and Diablo at the time as well and would never go back to those one dimensional (3D) games. Awe struck is a good point.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Actually I think Wiki-wrong-ia got that one misquoted.

I just checked, and the quote seems to be correct:

Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. pp. 9-10, 741. ISBN 0-1310-1816-7. "[pp. 9-10] TinyMUD was deliberately intended to be distanced from the prevailing hack-and-slay AberMUD style, and the "D" in its name was said to stand for "Dimension" (or, occasionally, "Domain") rather than "Dungeon;" this is the ultimate cause of the MUD/MU* distinction that was to arise some years later. [pp. 741] The "D" in MUD stands for "Dungeon" [...] because the version of ZORK Roy played was a Fortran port called DUNGEN."

Originally Posted by Ntanel Second, MUDs are derviced from BBS.

Derived? Not really. CBBS (the first public dial-up BBS) was developed the same year as MUD (1978), but MUD ran on a University network, which was connected to ARPANET (the predecessor of the internet) in 1980. I'm not aware of any BBS muds older than 1989 (Legends of the Red Dragon - if you consider that a mud), and most seem to have started with the release of MajorMUD in 1994.

[Ntanel]

Well, I got in to MUDs eleven years later. Anywho, in 1978, I was still in diapers. From 1989 to 1993, the only way I was able to access a MUD was via a BBS. Death's Domain and Perilous Realms. I do not miss the Commodore 64 and 1200 baud modem.

Originally Posted by KaVir I just checked, and the quote seems to be correct: Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. pp. 9-10, 741. ISBN 0-1310-1816-7. "[pp. 9-10] TinyMUD was deliberately intended to be distanced from the prevailing hack-and-slay AberMUD style, and the "D" in its name was said to stand for "Dimension" (or, occasionally, "Domain") rather than "Dungeon;" this is the ultimate cause of the MUD/MU* distinction that was to arise some years later. [pp. 741] The "D" in MUD stands for "Dungeon" [...] because the version of ZORK Roy played was a Fortran port called DUNGEN." Derived? Not really. CBBS (the first public dial-up BBS) was developed the same year as MUD (1978), but MUD ran on a University network, which was connected to ARPANET (the predecessor of the internet) in 1980. I'm not aware of any BBS muds older than 1989 (Legends of the Red Dragon - if you consider that a mud), and most seem to have started with the release of MajorMUD in 1994.

[ShadowsDawn]

Heh, good to see you around Ntanel!

Kerrida

[Ntanel]

I wish I had some advance notice on the transfer of this place. I could have probably worked out a deal with MudMagic to host this bad boy. I would have guilted Synozeer in to letting me have it, hehe.

Originally Posted by ShadowsDawn Heh, good to see you around Ntanel! Kerrida