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Old 02-19-2003, 05:34 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Feb. 20 2003,03:47)
Is Brody attempting to "spam" (And I use that term loosely) his own thread? .

With that amusing observation, I'm ducking out to grab food and a specific book in relation to my observations about the "good for the community" and "good of their own heart".

Brody, my deepest apologies, but Orion was the one who demanded I continue this train of reasoning ^.^.

Why to you "-D" every time you post? Is the box the left not obvious enough? It is most unnecessary. Perhaps put it in your sig so it doesn't display per my settings?

Aaaaand to get back on topic: Flame Flame Flame Flame.
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Old 02-19-2003, 06:04 PM   #142
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Finally got the chance to read the thread again. My brain couldn't process anything more after page 13. I can't help but feel kinda impressed at the sight of this train wreck though. Woah!

*Goes off somewhere feeling vaguely upset for watering down her first post. "I could have been a contenda-er flamer too. Darn!"


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Old 02-19-2003, 06:36 PM   #143
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Azhon: If I sign something with "-D", it means I'm not serious, as in it's the whole 'Dulan' flamer facade I use on the major boards.

Molly: I've stated my motives before. Brody irritated me with himself trying to appear a shining and outstanding citizen with no motives other then that whole "goodness of his heart" BS. In other words, 'irritation' is my motive, neh?
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Old 02-19-2003, 08:33 PM   #144
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All issues of motivation and such aside, I'll just weigh in briefly with my opinion on the concept of what you're doing, Brody. I think it's a self-defeating scheme. You may or may not have genuinely "good" intentions for this project, but it is doomed to irrelevance for one reason:

You don't actually offer any useful information.

No informative review... heck, not even a alf-hassed "I spent 20 mins in the MUD" review. Even if everyone was polite enough to keep the flames out of this thread, it would turn into nothing more than spam after a few weeks. After three months, your list would basically be a mirror of the bottom 80 of the list, albeit in a shuffled order.

In short, you might have good intentions, but the execution leaves much to be desired.

note: This is not intended to be a flame, it's merely a bit of constructive criticism.

Perhaps it would be a better idea instead to do "Brody's MUD of the week", giving you time to gather some useful information about the MUD in question.
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Old 02-19-2003, 08:57 PM   #145
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You're all idiots.
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Old 02-19-2003, 10:40 PM   #146
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* snip *

Oh, never mind.  My original post may have had a point, but it was probably prompted by my wounded ego as much as anything, and I really don't think we need any more of those around here at the moment.

KaVir, I do hope that at some stage you realize what a tosser this is making you look.  

We all make mistakes.  It can be excruiating when we make them publicly.  You would garner my respect if you would learn from yours.

Still sighing

BTW: who mentioned Iraq?  Don't you know I MUD to escape the appallingness of the real world?  Now you've got me thinkin about it.  
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Old 02-20-2003, 07:47 AM   #147
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Keahi, please get a grip on yourself. Even if you are unable or unwilling to contribute anything to the discussion, that doesn't mean you should try and ruin it for those of us who are. I realise you're just a newbie, but that's still no excuse for poor manners.

JilesDM: Some very valid points, and similar to those I've been trying to point out for a while now. Here are some of my thoughts on a possible solution - it's just a rough idea, but hopefully it'll provide a starting point to discuss:

I don't think a review necessarily has to be too intensive to be of value, but it should at least go into some details which already aren't covered in the TMS description. While a thorough in-depth review would always be nice, not many people are able to devote that much time to playing each mud.

However one possibility would be to do the "5 minute" test. It's been my experience that you need capture the player's interest within their first few minutes in order for them to stay. Thus a reviewer could log on, and see what their impression is after the first 5 minutes.

Obviously that is nowhere near long enough to give most muds justice, but it would still be useful to get a newcomers first impression - and not just for potential players, but also for the muds themselves.

The review could also point out how helpful the players and staff were - an important factor for many players, and once which is very difficult to work out from the description of a mud (because obviously no mud is going to tell you if their staff are rude to newbies).

It would also be nice to have a brief run-down of what the mud would have to offer later on, as sometimes the mud descriptions don't really cover the features in any detail. For example, while a description might say "we've got a wilderness system", many players would also be interested to know whether the wilderness system used ascii maps, generated descriptions (and what type), or both. Some wilderness systems are just static landscapes, while others can be modified and interacted with by the players (for example, chopping down trees and using them to build your own house). This run-down shouldn't cover things which are already mention in the TMS listing, but should instead focus on the details which the description missed.

Finally, rather than having the review posted by a single person, I think it would beneficial to give the overall impressions of two or three different reviews, each of whom has different tastes in muds. Obviously someone who only likes pure RP muds is unlikely to get a good first impression from even the most well original and well thought-out Pure PK/HnS mud - and vice versa.

While I realise that Brody is probably not interested in this, I still think it could be a beneficial undertaking that would not only help promote some of the lesser known muds, but would also allow players to see some (reasonably) unbiased opinions from the point of view of a new player.
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:50 AM   #148
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The idea of a group of reviewers doing something like that is a good one - oddly enough, Enzo brought up something like it in a thread here:;t=27

If carried out the way he's suggesting, it's certainly more valid than many reviews we see now.

I've never said what I'm doing is a review, by the way. In fact, I've gone out of my way to say it's not. I *do* visit the games to make sure they're operational (and said as much in my introductory post to the Tavern of the Blue Hand version of this thread). But I'm not limiting myself to games that would survive even a normal five-minute test. Some of these are games in the alpha phase that are looking for staff, trying to get off the ground.

For you, for others, there may seem little value in giving even slight exposure to these lower-ranked games day-after-day. But the cumulative effect is that every day I post about a new game from the sub-20s, there's a chance that game - and every other game in that thread - will get people checking it out.

And, Jiles, given the rate at which games proliferate - and the fluid nature of the lower rankings (especially 81-100) - I don't think I'll need to go to a weekly pick anytime soon. If anything, I'll just have to plunge a little farther and do as Samson suggested: Find games in the sub-100s to help out.
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:32 AM   #149
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** Disclaimer **

I am fully aware that what I say will more than likley be over-looked in the massive flame-war, but I, being of sound mind and body, try anyways to get a point across

** End Disclaimer **

People keep asking what the point or relevance of the whole thing is, and why do it. It's honestly very simple. Exposure.

Brody isn't trying to post a definitive review. He's not even really giving his own opinion (other than the "It's worth checking out" tagline), it's simply being put up there for exposure. It's honestly just like having a banner or a listing on here EVEN in the top 10. They are there for exposure. Currently the game I admin is ranked #6 on here, so my listing gets quite a bit of exposure. My listing on here is only there to attempt to draw people to the game, and hopefully give them a reason to dig further on here, on the web, on the game, and so on. Same with banners, I put them up and hope that they draw someone's attention and someone checks it out and delves further.

With that said, honestly, if Brody wants to take time out of his day to give some game which is buried on one of the back pages a little bit of exposure which it normally would not get, more power to him. And is it working? Well, this thread now has over 5700 views, so we can assume that there's exposure of some sort. The other "flame-free" forum has 225 views, lower, but less yapping like small dogs, so imho, bonus.

Get off Brody's ass to be honest, if he wants to do it, let him. If he wants to call it something of his own choosing, let him. If you all want to keep flaming back and forth, my god, go for it, but honestly, if you want to more productively USE the hours spent on this topic alone flaming back and forth on something trivial and not even remotely flame-worthy, why doesn't someone take 5 minutes, go find one of the less-exposed sites in the bottom 80, DO a "5-minute test" and post something on a forum about it. Crap, if I wasn't at work and firewalled from doing so myself, I would do it personally...

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Old 02-20-2003, 06:52 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by (kris @ Feb. 19 2003,20:57)
You're all idiots.
Hey..wasnt that Rori's little phrase from "Martian Sucessor Nedesco"? Huh..thought I knew it from somewhere..

...anyhoo.. Person C has made popcorn for People D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L and all the rest that want to sit here and watch "When Moderators Attack".
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Old 02-20-2003, 10:33 PM   #151
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Oh dear.  I'm ill-mannered, let's see now, because I, a newbie (such impertinence) dared to suggest that the behaviour of the great KaVir in this thread has been less than admirable?  (I must say, I do find him calling anyone ill-mannered after what he did to Samson a bit rich.)

I was certainly not trying to ruin any healthy debate.  There was very little debate to ruin at that point.

I had made some points in my original post that I retracted on reflection since they only contributed to the pointlessness of this thread.  But for the record, a precis:

Way back on page 11, KaVir had paraphrased everyone in the thread to that point, selectively, to his own ends, and in the process wounding my very own ego by ignoring the points I'd tried to make in my post waaaaaaay back on page 7, presumably because he found them inconvienient (I'll credit him with having the integrity to have bothered to read them in the first place).

No great loss in the grand scheme of things, but I agreed with Orion that paraphrasing people is a surefire way to rile those paraphrased, particularly when the paraphrasing ignores the meat of their argument.  

But then, given that almost everything that KaVir has written here has been a slight to someone, my protests are just so much noise at this point.  Person K (if not C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and L) did not just wake up one morning and decide "Person B - bad" out of the blue; she had the evidence shoved down her throat.

That aside, I'm intrigued and pleased to observe this thread scrabbling it's way back from the brink of the "flaming abyss of ####" towards some semblance of sanity.  Rational debate may win the day yet, let's see...

K, making a mess of her popcorn
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Old 02-20-2003, 11:45 PM   #152
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I'm always trying to find good MUDs, And it's a very difficult process, because there's so much ****e out there and few tools to help seperate the wheat from the chaff. I frequent TMS because it does help somewhat in this regard.

There are plenty of improvements that could be made to TMS that would assist me in my quest. I have a big wish list (professionally written reviews, public ratings a la IMDB, the "if you like X, you may also enjoy Y" type feature I've described elsewhere). Dreams are free.

But if anyone spends time and effort doing anything that, to whatever small and imperfect degree, for whatever reasons of their own, helps me find interesting MUDs, I'm going to do nothing but thank them for it.

Thank you Brody. Thank you Synozeer, for that matter. Thanks in advance to anyone who'd like to help tease out a silver lining from this maelstrom by discussing features they'd like to see / feel like implementing here at TMS.

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Old 02-22-2003, 04:17 AM   #153
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I don't usually post on these boards. I have been watching and reading for quite some time and have found absolutely no reason to post when nothing will come of it but insults and degredations. However, as an administrator for a MUD currently in the lower 80 ranks, I have to say that I find the "underdog of the day" idea a rather well thought out one.
My thoughts are simply these:
1. An underdog is someone at a disadvantage. Very true, and very right, most muds not on the first page, don't get the traffic of the upper end muds. People, in general not all, want to find something quick and easy. First page Muds are it, then they move on.
2. An underdog is one who is expected to, or loses regularly.
Also very true, however, in the sport sense, that does not mean they are not the better, or that they are in some way flawed. In this case the "winners" are decided by votes. Muds in the lower 80 would be underdogs by exact definition. They do not get the votes to "win" a spot in the top 20, and have less of a chance of gaining in popularity because of that status. By popularity I mean, getting players to play and vote for the better of the mud.
3. Brody has given his email address, and asked admins to contact him if they dont want their mud listed. This is leaving the decision up to them. If they find this insulting they have the choice not to be a part of it. It is their decision, not yours.
4. Brody might simply be doing this because of the good karma or the nice warm fuzzy feeling he might get when someone comes up to him and says, "thanks, I read your 'underdog mud of the day' post and found the MUD of my dreams".

For those of you specifically looking for an ulterior motive, shame on you! I have the distinct feeling that you have never done anything nice in your life unless you were expected to gain something from it. If that is the case, what has come of humanity? Good for you Brody, I just wish I had thought of it!

Now for those of you who wish to continue to rant and rage about a service of kindness. Please take this to an Ethical forum of some kind. This is no longer advertisements, but a conversation about the ethics of this particular subject.
I actually ask the admins of Top Mud Sites to make sure this continues no further on this thread. I, for one, would actually like to be able to see a list of the "underdog muds of the day" so that I might see what other muds, not in the top 20, have to offer, and Im sorry, with my life and running my own mud, I dont have time to scroll through all 100 listings and find ones not even in the top 100 that match what I look for.
Thank you Brody for making things easier for me. Thank you for helping me find what I am looking for. And most importantly thank you for the service you are providing to those who wish to have it.

Any and all responses should be made on a new thread on a new forum where we can more accurately handle the ethical aspects of this situation.
This is Brody's thread to "Advertise for Players" for the mud of the day that he chooses. Let us leave it as such and not cloud this thread with even more useless crap.

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