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Old 04-30-2006, 10:37 PM   #101
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Yes, they'd need the cooperation of government prosecutors for a criminal prosecution, but the scale here is so miniscule that they wouldn't waste their time on it. They have limited resources and are going to reserve those resources for cases where there is real or potential harm being done.

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Old 04-30-2006, 10:38 PM   #102
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It's off-topic, so I'll PM you.

--matt
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Old 04-30-2006, 11:58 PM   #103
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Could you not make personal insults please? If you feel anyone else has made insults to you or someone else in this thread, ask them not to or PM the moderator for the sub-forum. But returning in kind is not the answer. I'm surprised this post has not yet been editted. Isn't this a moderated thread?
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:33 AM   #104
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John has a point. Let's try to avoid strongly-loaded terms in this thread. This thread has been admirably light on the flames so far. Let's keep it that way. I would prefer not to have to moderate as it just causes bad feelings.

--matt
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Old 05-01-2006, 02:10 AM   #105
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Discussing Matt's ethics in-depth would both be off-topic and pointless. I could start another thread about it, but you could research itself, because another thread would immediately resort to flaming.

I was not attempting to guilt-trip Nhl. I was pointing out, as I've tried to say several times, that when you decide to publically lobby an argument that goes against a given social norm/rule, you should be ready for the inevitable ethical judgements that will be made against you by those who believe strongly in the status quo. I, myself, am aware of this rule of thumb, and do not think any less of Nhl's opinions on the DIKU license. Any fuzziness on what motivates his opinion on this issue is not really important for the argument.
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:16 AM   #106
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See here:

"These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most "compilations" may be registered as "literary works""

Compiling the source code creates either a "derivative work" or a "copy", depending on the specifics of the compilation process. Modifying the code creates a "derivative work". Creating backups as a "copy". Letting other people connect to it is a public "performance" or "display". All of these are exclusive rights under copyright law.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:23 AM   #107
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the_logos April 30 2006,23:13
You keep repeating this argument in different forms.

How about the evidence that the Medievia representatives provide themselves? Like for instance Soleil repeatably requesting that Medievia be added to the 'professional games' list, which, if I recall right, has as one of the basic requirement that at least one staff member must be working full time on it? If you make a living from running a mud, (in fact, support a family on it), is that not making a profit?

Or how do you define 'turning a profit' yourself?
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:32 AM   #108
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In a community such as ours, there are unwritten rules dictating behavior. Where I come from, that's articulated as 'Don't be a dick'. Contract or no, lawsuit or no, you don't f*** your parents over, and one would be hard-pressed to say that DIKU wasn't the father of the mud revolution, even if it wasn't the originator.

To use their contribution to our community inappropriately is not only inethical, it's dishonorable.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:39 AM   #109
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There is clear evidence that they do not have the diku or merc credits. Such credits are required by the Diku and Merc licences, and therefore it is clear to me that Medievia is not following those licences.

Do you disagree?
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:46 AM   #110
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You may find of interest.  In particular:

If you register the work before the infringement begins or within three months of the date the work ispublished, you may be entitled to recover standard damages from the infringer, in addition to your actual damages:

* your attorney fees and court costs, and

* "statutory damages" -- special damages of up to $100,000 per infringement -- without having to establish what damage you actually suffered.


The Diku team could also claim that by using the mud commercially, the user was avoiding paying for the Diku II licence.

I fail to see any evidence which would suggest that.  The fact is that the Diku team are the copyright holders - they don't need to follow their own licence, because as the authors they already have the rights granted under copyright law.
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:42 AM   #111
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Kavir,

Heya. You consistently seem to misunderstand me, and perhaps that's largely my fault. My points are all over the place at times. I am not saying a violation has not occured, I am saying the violation may well be unenforceable.

These are aspects of the situation I feel you have yet to address.

Whether we like it or not, there are other considerations over time than just the Diku team's license. Mud's very specifically are a strange amalgum between normal literature and programming, such that I doubt, for example, that the world design could be coopted by the Diku team as a derivitive work should the mud be moved to another code base.

It just seems your view on this is narrower than what evidence I can find just fishing around the internet would seem to indicate.
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:44 AM   #112
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:58 AM   #113
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It would be a copyright infringement.  The licence is what you hold up as your defence. If the licence were deemed unenforcable, you'd have no defence against the Diku team's claims of copyright infringement.

I already cleared that up for you.  The US Copyright Office has stated that "".

I've provided links for each of my statements.
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Old 05-01-2006, 09:34 AM   #114
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Old 05-01-2006, 10:37 AM   #115
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Old 05-01-2006, 10:44 AM   #116
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It occurs to me that the term "unenforceable" possibly has a meaning in legaleze that I am not familiar with.

To further clarify what I am talking about, say the Diku team accused you of making a derivative work of theirs. You are well known to have worked with Diku, so perhaps there is room for some suspicion in their minds, or whatever.

If they make that accusation in court, do you think that they are assumed to be correct until you prove them wrong, or do they not at the least have the burden of proof that the program you made is indeed a derivative work? How are they to do that if they have no right to look at the program?

That is what I mean by "unenforceable".
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:19 AM   #117
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An implied licence - according to Wikipedia. However an implied licence is "created by law in the absence of an actual agreement between the parties. Implied licenses arise when the conduct of the parties indicates that some license is to be extended between the copyright owner and the licensee, but the parties themselves did not bother to create a license"

(Ref:

However we already have a licence.

It would be a derivative of both. If you incorporate chunks of Star Wars fiction into a modified version of DikuMUD, for example, then you end up with something which is a derivative of both Diku and Star Wars.

Well you're talking about burden of proof, and that's really going to depend on each specific case. In the case of Medievia, I'd say it's pretty clear cut.

If they had good reason to believe my mud was a Diku derivative then they could try and legally force me to reveal the source code, yes (although they wouldn't need to - I'd just show them, if they honestly thought my mud was a derivative).
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:29 AM   #118
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I'm not at all sure why you think that any sort of mixture makes it harder to protect. The world is protected, the code is protected. Changing part of the whole or even 99% of the whole does not exempt the rest.

As for enforceability, it's likely that if a court felt that there was a case to answer, they would take action to ensure that the code was available to that court, the same way as any sort of evidence or documentation can be brought to a court.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:37 AM   #119
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There is only one thing with which one might disagree. They clearly do not have Diku or Merc credits listed, but, other than the code audit done on the stolen code 10 years ago, there is no proof that at this moment they are actually running a Diku or Merc derivative MUD.

Seeing how someone in the Diku team seemed satisfied with changing the structure, functions, etc behind the sceness as a condition to not being called Diku derivative in the case of Aardwolf (I do not really feel like looking it up but if any has a problem accepting that as true, PM me and I will do the lookup for you in these forums). Therefore, if we do not really know (eventhough we may be suspicious about it because they seem to have lied in the past about it), I feel pressed to assume that they learned from those past mistakes and actually rehauled they handful of code lines and code structures that 10 years ago made them a Diku derivative.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:59 AM   #120
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It appears the Wikipedia entry is saying that a sufficient length of time allowing a known infringer to use something establishes the implied license. It would be similar to adverse possession of real estate if it indeed works that way. It is not entirely outside the scope of the law as I know it, in any event.

Burden of proof, yes. And I think it is entirely possible that given Medievia's past dealings, if the Diku team were to bring suit that it would not be at all unlikely that an injunction to look at the code of Medievia would be forthcoming.

Coming from me it means little, but hehe. I don't know if I will ever have the energy to look more into the implied license thing or not.
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