[Dulan]

Used the improper term for the meaning. I do that alot - see this thread.

It's not that simple. Properly forged and tempered metal does not have a "grain" or a "weak point" to strike and break as martial artists do with wood. You'd have to focus it to such a small point that you'd be basically hitting it with a tiny chisel - and that really wouldn't work very well in the end.

"Temper" was used in a generic manner. But, even then, unless we are talking about something totally and utterly out of the bounds of this conversation, Shao is lieing outright.

That is largely irrelevant. If Shao even follows an art, it probably refers to itself in terms of "Belts", with full-fledged "brown belts with red tips" or whatever.

-D

[Aequitas]

I'd have to go with Jet Li, and if you havn't seen Dragons of the Orient yet... do so it'll give you a little insight on where Jet Li is comming from.

[Shao_Long]

now im sure you know nothing of japans history,Dulan...
Okinawa's peasants unarmed and unarmored were resisting samurai's invasion for about 5 years. Pretty long time for a bunch of untrained peasants,eh ?
If hand is specially practiced and trained,even without any special concentration of ki,it can pierce metal armor.
Or you dont believe that it is possible to break a concrete slab with a hand too ?
you pretty closely resemble one of my classmates now.he too doesnt likes me too much,and in discussion what best submachine gun is (aksu vs mp5) he was arguing for half a hour, even when all the class already was against him,just to yell 'liar !' at me. this is moronish,dont you agree ?
human body has much more applications then eating/sleeping/yelling. properly trained human really canbreak metal/stone. sure,im not speaking about 5meters thick titanium/ceram steel or some depleted uranium armor. But it IS possible. heh,i seen that myself. so you can yell 'liar' as long as you can,i dont care.

[Dulan]

Shao, I can break concrete slabs with my hands. 4 at once of 3" thicknesses. I can break ice, as well. However, do you know _why_ they can be broken? They are porous materials. They "want" (Well, not really, but relatively vs metal) to give way. Metal has a molecular structure that is tight-knit and does not want to give way.

Which province, which date, which ruler, and which dynasty? There are several instances of this in Japan. Also, this is irrelevant to the argument. Any reason why you are trying to bring it off-topic, Shao? Fear, maybe?

Wrong. I've checked with a physics Ph.D at my university on this matter. Go check with an equivalently-knowledgeable Physics person in your area. He/she will confirm that statement - the human hand cannot be conditioned to break metal.

I can do this myself. It is because concrete is a porous material. Metal is not.

Oh? I see one person against me. You. A twit who has no clue whatsoever about what the human body is and is not capable of. And, again, this is irrelevant to the argument. Why do you bring up so much irrelevant crap, Shao?

Yeah. Sex. Stone is theoretically possible - unless we are arguing thin tin or some crap, metal is not.

You are a liar, or it was a hoax. Period. It is a physical impossibility for a human hand to break anything that is commonly considered metal armor.

-D

[Shao_Long]

Really ? Ask your physics teacher ? Or scientist ?
Is it possible for a man to stop a katana with a hand ?
Is it possible for a man to last w/o breathing for more then hour ?
Is it possible for a man to move something w/o touching it ?
Is it possible for a man to kill someone simply by pressing,not hitting,some specific points on his body ?

This list can be continued almost endlessly.Everything listed here IS possible.And was done already.

Physics cannot explain everything, Dulan. Besides,the thing about we are now arguing IS explainable.
Bullet is made of lead.How can it pierce steel ? Lead is softer then steel,if you didnt knew.

If you cannot believe me, take any book describing approximately 16 century,maybe 17,not sure,and Satsuma's invasions of Okinawa. Read a bit about Okinawa Te,and then speak further. And,please,stop hurling your stupid insults at me. They make me laugh.


ps.speaking about stone,is it possible for you to break a brick wall with a FINGER ? made from double bricks.

[Orion Elder]

Fixed the topic title. Figured if it must stay around, it can at least be readable.

[Gad]

Shao, you keep saying all of these things are possible, but have you actually seen them done? I have seen many amazing feats at martial arts demonstrations, but none that defy the laws of science. If the only "proof" is from hearsay, or vague 17th century writings based on hearsay, I don't think you have much of a case. If the reason people don't demonstrate such feats as piercing armor and stopping blades and catching bullets in their teeth is because it is some sacred martial arts secret, why are you privy to such knowledge without such secrecy? None of it makes any sense.

Concrete and ice break because they are actually pretty weak in tension. When you strike a slab it puts the surface you strike into compression and the opposite surface into tension. Metal being relatively strong in both compression and tension is a different story. Metal also has the potential of being much less rigid, therefore absorbing more of the impact by denting and bending rather than cracking.

Bullets work because force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration. Lead is fairly dense, and therefore has pretty good mass compared to a lot of other materials. When fired a bullet has an amazing amount of acceleration. These combined give a bullet a lot of force. Apply this force to a small area and there you go. The human hand is not terribly massive and can certainly not reach the acceleration potential of a bullet.

[Dulan]

With two hands - yes. My sensei demonstrated this to the class. However, it is more efficient and effective to dodge and counter rather then bother with a fancy move that takes years of training to even be somewhat usable.

Sure. If he's dead. That's it. No ifs, ands, or buts. Human consumption of oxygen, even in a near-catatonic state, has a maximum (Absolute maximum) of around 15 minutes before death sets in.

Let's not get into an argument about telekinesis, please. I am agnostic - that should speak volumes about me.

An impossibility. If this were true, it would be in every single serious martial art. It would be unspeakably popular.

Prove it. Show me reliable cites. Do not use this appeal to anonymous authority - show me information. Prove what you claim.

Physics cannot explain everything. But it can explain everything in this area - and it is impossible according to current day physics.

And what happens to the bullet after it pierces the steel, Shao? Yes, that's what I thought. If your hand could even attain the necessary velocity to puncture steel, there would be very little left that could be called a hand - it'd be a bloody mess of shattered bones and pulped flesh.

Would a godan in Okinawa-te be enough for you, Shao? The godan laughed - hard - when he heard these claims.

You are a liar, a twit, a twink, a spammer, and more. Enough said.

That wall is either "setup" so it collapses with a touch, or the finger is destroyed. One or the other. And show me proof if you claim otherwise.

Gad -

I should be privy to these secrets in several martial arts. I've never seen hide or hair of them. Most consider the "amazing feats" merely continued, constant training of stuff that was taught earlier. There are no real "secret techniques" in any martial art that I have seen so far.

Small words for Shao, Gad.

Again, small words for Shao. This kind of stuff is above his head.

-D

[Orion Elder]

[Dulan]

I believe that this entire thread was agreed to as spam, even by you yourself. Thus, it should be deleted - and it is a valid source of flame.

Untill my sensei watches his "Death Touch" in action and gives his opinion, I am classifying that as hoax. I do remember a video of it being shown at a fairly big gathering of folks earlier, and all the Godans or higher started laughing out loud at something. -shrug- Whatever it was, I lacked the training to understand. However, anything with a fanciful name such as "Death touch" is rarely what it claims to be.

Idle question - How much proof is there, other then the skydivers own account of his actions?

And I reiterate - this thread does not belong on these boards.

See previous comments. I'll ask my sensei about it sometime, and find out what is so vastly amusing about it. Honestly, I think it is bull - and Ripley's has been known to have some, shall we say, rather "rigged" shows? If this so-called "Death Touch" were real, as well, he'd have demonstrated it or taught it. And it would be something that would be spreading across the martial arts circles like wildfire - if it is so great, then everyone would have to learn it, if only to learn how to counter it.

Again, I seek proof. Not the skydivers own account of his actions.

[Orion Elder]

Dulan, you're not a moderator. Don't try to act it.

This thread was left because there was interest in it, and Synozeer has not laid a 'MUDs only' rule on this thread. I've been lax in keeping it related to MUDs simply because of that. If I see multiple threads on a subject (such as all the Star Wars posts) I deal with it then...

Now, drop the flames, or stop posting. The choice is yours.

As for the information I showed you, these actions were witnessed. If you choose not to believe them, that is your choice... but, do not attempt to degrade the value of the information by stating misconstrued information. The article I linked to about Norberti was from the Unbreakable (the movie) website. It was not a statement from the man who did it.

But, anyway, I'm done with posting on this thread. Keep it civil.

[Shao_Long]

[Mason]

Hmm. No one wanted to respond to my post about the three martial arts I feel are most effective (JKD, BJJ, & KM).

Anyways, I thought I would chime in about the "death touch." Its phony and fake. If you want to read about how it is "done," go to the following link and read the post by Darren Laur.

[Dulan]

Prove it. Show me a documented, scientifically accepted proof. Humans can only survive about 6 to 7 minutes (First aid training speaking here) under normal circumstances without air. 15 minutes is a really, really outside estimate, even assuming minimal consumption of air.

If this were true, why would you know of it, Shao? It would be the most heavily guarded technique of any martial art. Some unknown 16-year old would most definitely not know of it. Prove your statement here, with scientifically accepted fact, or admit that you were lieing, bud. See, these type of techniques quickly fall under Darwinism - if an art cannot absorb a 'killer' technique such as these, it would have been destroyed 'back in the day', so to speak. Techniques that fall under this area are mere myth.

Bull****. Prove it. Show me a scientifically accepted proof, or admit to the lie, again. Unless the wall is intentionally rigged, similar to that so-called "Death touch" was, there is no possible way.

Books? The books I've glanced over state that you are utterly and completely full of it. That is why it took me so long to respond.

Mason:
Aikido was created in the 19....60's was it? It falls under the same general area as the other arts you outlined, however, it focuses on disabling ones opponent without harming them. It can be used for great offensive effect if one wants, though.

-D

[thelenian]

[Shao_Long]

[Dulan]

I'd think you'd best respond to Thelenians comments, Shao.

You keep coming up with more and more outrageous statements as your old ones get torn apart. May want to just plain apologize, or actually bother responding to on topic comments, instead of trying to go off topic.

Thel:
Pretty much agreed there. However, there are a few holds in Aikido, when properly extended, that can really harm ones opponent. But, as you said, it requires significant amounts of experience to actually use properly.

-D

[Mason]

The problem with martial arts such as Aikido is that they require what are called "fine motor skills."  (I.e. precise movements).  Under normal fighting situations, your adrenaline kicks in and stress takes over.  This will usually cause all fine motor skills to shut down and leave you with what are called "gross motor skills."  Often, this is why you see people in fights just flailing their arms. This is the reason MA such as aikido and karate are impractical in a real fight.  And, it is also the reason why those who practice arts like muay thai, brazillian JJ, JKD, and krav maga tend to do better in real fights than others.  Krav Maga teaches instinctual and gross motor skill responses to threats.  That is why people who train in KM are more likely to use their training in a real fight as opposed to someone in Aikido.  An aikido practioner, even if he/she doesn't lose their fine motor skills (as most people will do unless they train under stressful conditions), will still have a tough time landing those moves, as they are very particular and require a lot of precision; something that is very hard to do against an opponent who is fighting back.

[KaVir]

An interesting article here on diving:



Somewhere in the primordial part of his mind the pressure and cold water trigger orders to conserve the oxygen supply in his bloodstream. His spleen shrinks substantially, raising the level of oxygen-enriched hemoglobin. Because blood shift takes blood from the limbs, the burning of oxygen is much reduced -- only the brain and vital organs are drawing it. Receptor cells around Ravelo's lips cue the slowing of his heart by as much as 50 percent -- a phenomenon, known as diving bradycardia, that sometimes allows near-drowning victims to be revitalized forty minutes after sinking into icy water.

Regarding fighting armoured opponents, Shao_Long is partially correct. The form of unarmed combat developed on the island of Okinawa did indeed allow its practitioners to penetrate the Samuri armour - however that armour was made from bamboo, not metal.

It's also worth mentioning the Hwa Rang (Flowering Knights), who learned to kill an opponent with a single linear thrust punch which was capable of breaking through wooden armour.

[thelenian]

re: Mason

What you say is definitely true.  Westernized versions of martial arts (JKD, BJJ, "westernized" karate) are all optimized for fighting in tournaments and sparring.

In eastern training, not only must you defeat your opponent, you must defeat him/her "correctly", performing the techniques with grace and precision.  If you knock your opponent out with a sloppy off-balance axe kick, you're more likely to receive criticism than praise.  While most eastern arts prepare their followers for raw combat to a certain degree, actually fighting in a real combat situation while correctly employing the techniques of the art typically becomes possible only when one has mastered the art.

Westernized martial arts tend to be completely focused on physical combat.  Eastern arts tend to focus on discipline of mind and precise physical control through exercises that, if necessary, can be used to neutralize an opponent (while some arts, such as Karate, were originally developed specifically for combat, they have since matured and become broader in scope).  Just as Aikido is less intuitively applicable to combat than just about any other eastern martial art, eastern arts tend to be less intuitively applicable than western arts, as combat is not the sole focus.

To say that, assuming equal levels of proficiency, a person trained in JKD will defeat a person trained in Karate 7 times out of 10 is almost certainly true in all cases where the combatants are not masters of their respective arts, but it is mostly meaningless.  The sole purpose of JKD is excellence in physical combat, whereas that is only partially the purpose of Karate.

In short, if you're looking simply for the most effective way to beat a person up, westernized arts are what you're looking for.