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Old 02-06-2006, 12:52 AM   #61
Solus
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The button thing was brought up in April 2004. I know the timeline.

I think I, a regular on Materia Magica's site, know more about what went on on that site than you - someone who does not know the site...
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Old 02-06-2006, 01:34 AM   #62
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Since I am talking about the time BEFORE he put the button on the site, and yet was magically generating a lot of votes, being a regular on the site would have no bearing. Your presence on the site is not going to help you notice the LACK of something you have no reason to expect to be there. You continue to speak of the time AFTER he first got caught cheating, and subsequently had to add a vote button.

Furthermore, the complete lack of any vote icon anywhere on the site was confirmed by actual players when they were asked if they knew of one and if they could find one.

Your tenacious attempt to revise history does nothing but demonstrate the extreme depths of your fanboism on this issue.
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Old 02-06-2006, 01:54 AM   #63
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I can easily find posts from Jan 2003 mentioning the voting and such. We had a link we could use. This is when the 'vote vote vote' spam started.

Out of curiousity, why would Vass even want to stop player votes? It doesn't really accomplish anything possitive.

PKzone shows Adam asking where the vote button is, and Vassago tells him where. It also has a log of Adam randomally asking where the URL to vote is. (Without even saying what to vote for.)

--

PKzone also proves Materia Magica wasn't getting near 200+ votes every 10 hours. This leaves me to question your creditablity or your memory. (Only 60 to 130 splurt votes every 18 hours on average can be blamed on Lothos's script.)


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Old 02-06-2006, 08:06 AM   #64
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Solus, give it up already. The fact that Lothos was able to post a graph showing virtually the same information the TMS administration went through a few posts earlier is enough evidence in itself. It means either he has access to TMS admin information, or HE WAS DOING THE BOTTING HIMSELF. You take your pick.
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:19 AM   #65
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:45 AM   #66
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I believe the log because it and the script attached explain the known data perfectly-- the bursts of votes despite the missing voting button, the IP patterns, etc.  That's convincing-- reverse engineering the code as well as the extensive conversations (and capturing Vassago's tone/attitude as well as the conversation does) would be extremely difficult.  It would be especially difficult to know what the exact IPs used were-- information that is otherwise only available to Synozeer, who has no reason to collaborate in this.

Those are my opinions, and the facts behind them.  Now, please explain, in no uncertain terms, what evidence you have that it is not true.  Otherwise, Occam's Razor steps in.

Aside: I don't moderate this forum, but I wish someone would. =)
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:07 AM   #67
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Well, I think your analogy would be more accurate if you put it like this: If you owned your own business and one of your employees clearly cheated on your business' taxes, should your business be held accountable?

I believe in this case, the answer is yes. If you knew your employee was misbehaving you had in your hands the power to fire him, and if you learned too late, you could have dealt with him then and faced the problems this employee caused the company later.

The problem here, it seems, is that this analogy does not resemble what happened in MM's case, at least not after the ... one of your employees clearly cheated ... bit.
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:42 AM   #68
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:55 AM   #69
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Here's some new links that even further prove what we already know.



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Old 02-06-2006, 11:45 AM   #70
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I'm not saying Lothos isn't to blame. I am saying Vassago's connection isn't fact. Its not proven.

Again, the vote button was there. I recall clicking it & we had a bit of message board spam from players saying to vote.
--
For the anolagy, a customer would be more accuracte.

Lothos actually got punished first, then started making claims.
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:47 AM   #71
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Lothos got punished and then he went public with that which in turn got him deleted
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:54 AM   #72
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Would it really be wise to keep a player who tries to publicly harm your game - one who has been a problem for years?

I don't see how its incriminating just because you delete a known trouble maker with a bad history.
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:40 PM   #73
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Don't bother arguing with Solus and somied, they're working hard at becoming Immortals on MM.  The staff is composed entirely of people with their follower mindset.

If none of this was true, Vassago would be here telling people how ridiculous it is.  Anytime that MM has been brought up on the boards here, or even had a bad review, Vassago is the first to show up crying foul.  Afterall, he still pays to advertise here.  Wouldn't he want this bad rumor cleared up and "Materia Magica's cheating ways" removed from the front page?

It's undisputed fact that MM cheated and was removed from the listings here.  There is absolutely nothing that can be said to change that.  A reasonable person is able to deduct from the massive amount evidence provided that Vassago was aware and encouraged the cheating.  Perhaps he even suggested it.  

Let's assume for a moment that Lothos, in the span of 1 day, creatively authored these logs and wrote 2 programs that perform the voting attack precisely as how it was executed.  How would he have private correspondence between Vassago and TMS administrators?  How would he have a graph created by someone at this site who was investigating the MM incident?  How would he know in-depth details about how and when it occured?

I understand that by questioning Vassago, you run the risk of deletion.  The history of the game would have proven that time and time again.  It's ok to not understand what happened, or to be confused by it, but please don't insult the intelligence of the people here by suggesting that this never happened or Vassago had no clue it was going on.
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Old 02-06-2006, 02:02 PM   #74
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Old 02-06-2006, 02:54 PM   #75
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As I've said before, and as you would alread know if you actually read any of the posts you're supposedly arguing against, I also believe that Lothos did it, and that it was in some way motivated by Vassago. So asking me to give you evidence to support the opposite is rather asinine of you.

However, I did make the clear distinction that no matter WHAT I believe, I don't have factual evidence - I (as well as every single one of you) only have circumstantial evidence. You don't have to be a lawyer or law enforcement agent to know that circumstantial evidence holds about as much water as a cloth bag when it comes to proving guilt.

My whole point is that you can't just go around crucifying people publically for things that aren't factually proven. You and the other bandwagon mob members can argue all you like about how coincedental the voting graph points to cheating, or how its the easiest solution so it must be true, etc etc etc. But at the end of the day, none of you can offer up any kind of actual proof, so just keep your opinions to yourself until you can.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:05 PM   #76
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As we can see on PKzone, Vassago forwarded the e-mail from Adam to some other people. It is possible that one of these people were friends with Lothos and passed the e-mail to Lothos.

I can't recall to many people who have been deleted. Deletion is rather rare.
There are players who have argued with Vassago for years who continue to play the game.

I am not saying the incident didn't happen. I'm just saying its not a fact that Vassago was involved involved with Lothos. We are limited to speculating.

Vass may not consider it worth dealing with. As is, I can't recall him ever replying to the hate mongering on KoC or PKzone.

And just from what I see on these forums, Vass has only made four different posts. One about helpfiles, one declaring the winner of the fansite contest held by Materia Magica, one pointing out Materia Magica isn't a comercail MUD, and one clarifying what was said.

I don't consider my pointing out your bad memory to be worthless. If your memory is bad, how do I know you remember about the button. I even checked some web archives and seen the button.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:20 PM   #77
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I'm reminded of the Chappelle's Show skit where Dave can't believe R. Kelly would do anything untoward because he once made albums Dave liked:

Prosecutor: Mr. Chappelle, what would it take to convince you that R. Kelly is guilty?
Dave Chappelle: Okay, I'd have to see a video of him singing "Pee On You," two forms of government ID (for the underage girl), a police officer there to verify the whole thing, four or five of my buddies and Neal taking notes, and R. Kelly's grandma to confirm his identity.
R. Kelly's Grandma: That's my Robert, always peeing on people.

As an aside, if you're going to claim I'm on a "bandwagon" with the original poster (the_logos)... son, you haven't been around these parts long, have you?
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:27 PM   #78
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Good god Solus, can you smell what you're shoveling?

Try reading between the lines, jesus.
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:12 PM   #79
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First off, "son", the length of time I've "been around" is as irrelevant as the rest of your post. Length of time on a forum does not affect the validity of your posts.

Secondly, the 'bandwagon' I was referring to is that of those people who jump at the chance to ridicule and accuse without proof. Your past disagreements with the_logos have no bearing on whether or not you're taking the same side as he is within the context of the current discussion.

And lastly, your analogy makes about as much sense as Threshold's. R. Kelly was caught and identified on video tape, which is indisputable evidence. Lothos and/or Vassago are being accused because "things seem fishy". If you don't recognize the difference between the two, then you have issues more pressing to deal with than are being discussed in this thread.

It's become blatantly obvious that none of you have anything of any relevance to contribute to the discussion anymore. Arguing about logic with illogical people is about the best example of an exercise in futility that I can think of, and I'm not a patient person by nature, so I'm going to stop trying to educate you.

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Old 02-06-2006, 06:10 PM   #80
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