[Dulan]

Note the "'s - it's being used in a sarcastic or otherwise not serious manner.

Excepting certain twink MUDs, I've yet to see a MUD that could really be a 'loser' MUD. Nor would I call a MUD I never played a "loser" MUD.

-D

[Azhon]

3 pages of crud in 1 day. Great work!

More! More! More!

[KaVir]

But Brody did offend me, and he's made it quite clear that he doesn't care.

You specifically said that you found what Brody did to be "perfectly fine", and that it was "Almost too bad those muds who don't even make it to the 80-100 section can't also be underdogged/dark horsed/spotlighted as well".

Well, I "underdogged" your mud, and suddenly it was no longer fine - it was now "offensive and crude".

So please explain why it's "perfectly fine" for Brody to post material that offends me, but "offensive and crude" for me to post exactly the same style of material when it offends you.

He didn't respond to my valid points. Pointing out that what he's doing is offensive is not an attack. Pointing out that what he's doing does not achieve his claimed objective is not an attack.

I've already pointed out that we're not the only ones. Apparently Brody isn't the only one who ignores facts that get in the way of his argument.

[Orion Elder]

[Samson]

Looks like the points I would have wanted to address have already been addressed, so....

One last thing - Dulan, I've explained why I think Brody has decided not to address the issue you raised with him. I accept his reasoning for it, and it likely would have been my own reasoning as well had this been my idea. Apparently the old tactic of "ignore the paranoid attack and it'll go away" doesn't work on you or Kavir. That you continue to try and find some underhanded scheme at work is disturbing. Are you ALWAYS this paranoid and suspicious in everything you do? Wait, don't answer that.....

[Kallekins]

[KaVir]

Here's a summary of the thread:

Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
Alajha: That's quite offensive.
Brody: Who cares?
Ogma: We don't cheat in the voting.
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
Alajha: My friend runs that!
Alajha: You can't seem to see how tasteless you are.
Brody: It's my time, and it's not tasteless. You've got issues.
Alajha: You've not even played those muds.
OnyxFlame: I like the idea.
Burke: You've just got an axe to grind, Alajha.
Brody: Sorry if you don't like it, but I'm going not going to stop.
Quicksilver: Any advertising is good advertising!
the_logos: (makes comment about anti-Achaea remarks)
Klered: Keep up the good work!
CSmith_Fan: An "underdog" means it's actually the "best"!
KaVir: Actually "underdog" means a loser, or a victim of injustice.
Brody: Well I'm using the definition "One that is at a disadvantage".
Cayn: I think it's a great idea!
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
smadronia: I like the idea!
KaVir: You can post what you like, but you will offend people.
Burke: You're just nitpicking.
Kitsune: I think it's a good idea.
John: Keep up the good work!
Jehanelin: Brody should think about expanding the idea.
Terloch: Synozeer is considering having official TMS reviews.
Bastien: Underdog of the day is a good idea!
Molly O'Hara: It's a great idea, but why not change the name?
KaVir: Reviews are great, but UotD give no info. It's more like a charity.
John: The muds Brody selects are not "poor" muds.
KaVir: Right. So why portray them as inferior?
John: Brody is just trying to draw attention to these muds.
Vesper: Good work, Brody.
KaVir: Right John, but there's no need to infer they are "losers".
John: Fair enough.
Terloch: Brody didn't intend to infer they were losers, so who cares?
KaVir: He should care, if he's really trying to help people.
Terloch: We should all stop posting now.
Burke: (no idea, as he edited it out).
Dulan: Brody is just randomly advertising muds. No review, no reason.
John: It would take too long to write reviews.
Brody: I'm not changing the name. Write your own blurbs.
Dulan: Ah, so it's to feed your ego.
Brody: I don't care what you believe.
Dulan: I think you have an ulterior motive.
Brody: (Sarcastic suggestions). Anybody else care to speculate?
Dulan: (Sarcastic response).
Brody: (Sarcastic response).
Ytrewtsu: He's trying to help the community!
Dulan: (Sarcastic response).
Brody: Next underdog of the day will be posted after midnight.
Dulan: You never answered the question about your motives.
Noximist: I'm glad to see these muds get some recognition.
Alajha: I apologise. The underdog mud owner said she doesn't mind.
KaVir: Brody, there are better ways to achieve what you're aiming for.
Dulan: Agreed. Why not write a script?
Brody: (Sarcastic response). Next underdog coming up!
Dulan: You're ignoring the points that were raised.
CSmith_Fan: Who cares? Start your own threads.
Tocamat: Who cares?
Bastien: Get over it.
Dulan: (Comments about a vocal minority).
Keahi: Where's the next underdog?
enix: Brody is just trying to be nice.
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
Falconer: Brody's motives don't matter.
John: (Joking comments)
KaVir: Brody, you've still not answered the points I've raised.
Burke: Maybe he got wise and started ignoring you.
Brianna: Maybe Brody should change the name?
Burr: Scripting is possible. Full reviews would also be nice.
Dulan: Burke's name is an offensive slang word.
KaVir: Brody cannot make these problems go away by ignoring them.
OnyxFlame: Brody's endorsement is much better than random crap.
Bastien: (Sarcastic comment about Burke's name)
Azhon: This discussion is amusing.
Samson: Underdog is good. I wish the unranked muds got a mention.
KaVir: (to OnyxFlame) How can it be better? He's never tried the muds!
KaVir: (to Samson) Okay, here's the same style post about your mud.
Brody: That was a vicious mocking. Start a new thread.
Dulan: (Comments about Burke).
Alajha: Brody is just after attention - to become a "big player".
the_logos: (Comments about Burke). Keep it up Brody.
Kitsune: Who cares if Brody wants to post his underdog adverts?
enix: He's just doing the best he can.
Almondine War: I support any actions meant in goodwill.
Dulan: Just as MUDs are public, so are people and their comments.
CSmith_Fan: (Complains that the thread won't die).
Loremaster: I think what Brody has done is a nice thing to do.
KaVir: (to Brody) I posted exactly the same style post as you.
Samson: The difference is that Brody's posts weren't offensive.
Dulan: Why does he keep dodging questions?
KaVir: They were as offensive to me as mine was to you.
Orion Elder: Brody has made it clear that he's trying to help!
Samson: But Brody didn't set out to offend!
Dulan: Brody dodges questions, ignores suggestions.
kris: (Loser Thread of the day post).
CSmith_Fan: That homosexual comment was out of line, kris.
kris: Yeah, that was the point. I wasn't being serious.
the_logos: It was still offensive.
Dulan: He was being sarcastic.
Azhon: 3 pages of crud in 1 day. Great work!
KaVir: (to Samson) But he did offend me.
Orion Elder: But you were being offensive.
Samson: Brody has decided not to address his motives.

Here's a shorter version, without all the "me too" and unrelated posts (I've also removed the Dulan/Brody insult exchanges):

Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
Alajha: That's quite offensive.
Brody: Who cares?
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
Alajha: My friend runs that!
Alajha: You can't seem to see how tasteless you are.
Brody: It's my time, and it's not tasteless. You've got issues.
Alajha: You've not even played those muds.
Brody: Sorry if you don't like it, but I'm going not going to stop.
KaVir: Actually "underdog" means a loser, or a victim of injustice.
Brody: Well I'm using the definition "One that is at a disadvantage".
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
KaVir: You can post what you like, but you will offend people.
KaVir: Reviews are great, but UotD give no info. It's more like a charity.
John: The muds Brody selects are not "poor" muds.
KaVir: Right. So why portray them as inferior?
Terloch: Brody didn't intend to infer they were losers, so who cares?
KaVir: He should care, if he's really trying to help people.
Brody: I'm not changing the name. Write your own blurbs.
Brody: Next underdog of the day will be posted after midnight.
KaVir: Brody, there are better ways to achieve what you're aiming for.
Dulan: Agreed. Why not write a script?
Brody: (Sarcastic response). Next underdog coming up!
Dulan: You're ignoring the points that were raised.
Brody: It's an underdog of the day!
KaVir: Brody, you've still not answered the points I've raised.
Burke: Maybe he got wise and started ignoring you.
KaVir: Brody cannot make these problems go away by ignoring them.
OnyxFlame: Brody's endorsement is much better than random crap.
Samson: Underdog is good. I wish the unranked muds got a mention.
KaVir: (to OnyxFlame) How can it be better? He's never tried the muds!
KaVir: (to Samson) Okay, here's the same style post about your mud.
Brody: That was a vicious mocking. Start a new thread.
KaVir: (to Brody) I posted exactly the same style post as you.
Samson: The difference is that Brody's posts weren't offensive.
Dulan: Why does he keep dodging questions?
KaVir: They were as offensive to me as mine was to you.
Orion Elder: Brody has made it clear that he's trying to help!
Samson: But Brody didn't set out to offend!
Dulan: Brody dodges questions, ignores suggestions.
KaVir: (to Samson) But he did offend me.
Orion Elder: But you were being offensive.
Samson: Brody has decided not to address his motives.

Conclusion:

Brody, for reasons of his own, decided to start randomly advertising muds which weren't on the front page. As I said to him at the time, the concept isn't a bad one, but as quickly became apparently, the name is rather derogatory and the adverts don't actually offer any incentive to try the mud (there's no real info about the muds - indeed, Brody hasn't even tried connecting to them).

In many aspects of the mud community, the bouncing back and forth of ideas is essential in order to create a worthwhile venture. In mud development, it is the only way to create a decent game. And it is no different here. If you go to any of the mud related websites you'll see contributor sections, places to send suggestions, and so on.

In this case, however, Brody simply refused to listen, consider, or respond to the points that were raised. Instead of taking the opportunity to refine his concept with the aid of the other members of the community, he instead decided to obliviously continue on his set course.

I've repeatedly tried to steer the conversation back towards improving the idea, but just got bombarded with responses like "Who cares?" and "You've got issues". I doubt that most of the posters have even read the thread before jumping onto the bandwagon, which is really rather sad.

If you want to flame me, fine. But at least have the decency of considering my viewpoint. Samson, I apologise for insulting you, but I needed to drive home the point that just because you don't find something offensive doesn't mean it isn't offensive to someone else. Both "underdog" and "loser" have a negative meaning, as well as an non-negative (and correct) one within the context of the TMS rankings. I had hoped you might be able to see past the post and understand what I was getting at.

[crymerci]

You might want to check out some of the articles () he's written for TMS to contribute to the community. Perhaps take note in his most recent one he mentions that he runs three MU*s.

I don't know if that makes him a 'Big Player' (whatever that is) but it certainly gives him a lot more credibility than someone like you, who has nothing but negativity to add to any forum discussion you participate in.

[Brody]

You can continue to watch this particular train wreck, or you can go to the real Underdogs thread at

[Orion Elder]

[KaVir]

I wrote a summary, I didn't "quote" anyone. I thought you might appreciate it, as apparently you couldn't be bothered to read the thread before posting.

10% is a minority, therefore it doesn't matter? I never said Brody had to change it, I simply pointed out that if - as he claimed - he was trying to help people, then he should bare in mind that his posts came across as derogatory. You should also bare in mind that when this was brought to Brody's attention, it was done by the only other poster in the thread - and Brody's response? "it's really no skin off *your* nose, is it?"

According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, the word "underdog" means either "a loser or predicted loser in a struggle or contest" or "a victim of injustice or persecution". Brody stated the definition he wished to use - but then so did I, in my "Loser of the day" post.

However the whole "underdog" thing was just a minor point that I thought any reasonable person would simply correct.

Person B points out that it doesn't currently achieve much, but with refinement could indeed be very useful, hoping that other people will join in and help expand the idea.

Person A ignores person B's criticisms and suggestions and continues with his concept that doesn't really add anything of value.

People C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L jump up and down screaming "Person A good! Person B bad!"

You know, I've seen muds where the administrators had a very similar sort of attitude towards feedback. They tend to stagnate very quickly.

[Orion Elder]

[Brody]

KaVir,

This isn't about whether I'd answer your questions. I made it quite clear in one of my recent posts addressing your behavior that I'd be perfectly willing to discuss this with you privately, rationally, like a couple of adults.

What it's about now, it seems, is whether I answer you on *your* terms, in a public venue, where *you* can continue to condescendingly seek fault in an act of kindness.

I'm not dodging anything. I'm just trying to stop this insane, pointless, petty playground shoving match. And I'm not doing it to be belligerent or oblivious. I asked you to take it private because I wanted you to escape this thread with a shred of dignity and credibility still intact.

For the record, I haven't received one e-mail from you. Not one private message. Nothing indicating you *really* have an interest in talking. So, one must assume that what you really want is for me to be a good minion and do what *KaVir* demands, simply because you're KaVir.

In the past five years, KaVir, since I entered the world of MU* management, I've always looked to you at least with respect, even if I haven't always agreed with what you've said. It was with respect in mind that I wanted to end the public one-man ****ing match.

You were a *hero*. Now you're an *object lesson*.

Frankly, I've got nothing left in the respect reservoir for you, but I've got an abundance of pity. This I can thank you for, though: You've shown me exactly the guy I *don't* want to be. I've gone down that ugly, petty, vindictive road a few times myself, within my own games, to their detriment. It's a shame to see you self-destructing like this over something so silly, but at least it serves as a wakeup call for the rest of us who strive to make something of ourselves in this community: Don't become so caught up in your own hype that you think everyone else owes you their fealty by default.

I hope you get your train back on track.

Best wishes,

Wes

[Orion Elder]

Well said... I think ending this here would be in EVERYONE'S best interests. Can I get a second?

[KaVir]

In your previous post you stated "So because two out of I dunno 20 or so people, give or take, find something offensive it should be changed?", so that was the figure I was going by. However it's really little more than pure speculation on anyones part as to how many people are likely to be offended, plus as I also pointed out, it's really not all that important. It was simply intended as a point of note that I felt might be worth taking into consideration.

I specifically stated which definitions I was using at the bottom of the post - and they were non-offensive. The fact that it was taken as an offense is no surprise, because that was the very point I was trying to highlight.

Any logical person will go through the thread for themself and make their own mind up. It's not difficult to see that I repeatedly tried to point out that Brody's solution wasn't addressing what he was aiming for, and deliberately refrained from attacking him for quite some time. It has nothing to do with agreement - I said early on that I had no objection to him saying that he disagreed. But I find it both rude and arrogant that he didn't even bother to respond to the points I had made, while continuing to claim that he was doing it for the good of the community.

Then please cite this evidence and I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you.

I believe that you should create the mud for yourself, yes - but that doesn't mean you should simply dismiss every possible idea out of hand. I have a firm vision for what I'm currently developing, but I will always listen to the players. Often their suggestions go against the vision (often because they don't really understand it) in which case I will explain to them why I won't use those ideas. Other times they raise points I hadn't considered, and which I need to address, or provide feedback which compliments the existing ideas.

But in this case the vision, the intent, is clear. And Brody isn't creating the list for himself, but for other people. This would be the equivilent of a mud being created for the players, in which the mud administrator doesn't care what the players think.

[Samson]

Orion: I second that Brody's response should be an end to the thread. Unfortunately, it would seem someone ELSE decided it wasn't, which is sad.


This right here sums it all up nicely. Thank you for providing your own words to hang you with. You're ****ed because he decided NOT to engage you in this silly debate of yours and THAT is the ONLY reason for why you continued to hammer on about it. You're like the little brother who keeps picking on the big brother, and then when the big brother's only response is "I refuse to get sucked in" you throw a tantrum and tell everyone what a bastard your big brother was for not acknowledging your stupidity and that he's not really acting for the good of everyone by avoiding the fight.


Now then, the motion has been seconded, can we get a third, and perhaps an end to this? Or do we need to endure 12 more pages of Kavir whining about how he's not getting the results he wants?

[KaVir]

Well I've just been through all of your posts, and the closest you come is when you said "You can attack *me* all you like over this. In another thread, via private message, fine."

However I didn't want to attack you. I'd repeatedly tried to avoid doing just that, because I was hoping you'd see sense, and I knew from experience that if I flamed you, your pride would never let you change your viewpoint.

What I wanted to do was discuss the issue openly, so that everyone could give their opinions. Not just you, not just us, but everyone on these forums. I am no more infallible than you or anyone else, but the more people who give input, the better the end result is likely to be.

[KaVir]

Samson, please, try to show a little maturity. I already apologised for - and explained the reasoning behind - the post I made earlier.

[Ytrewtsu]

Kavir, I think you missed my point entirely in your "summary". My point was that you are out of line for posting as you have throughout this post because as a forum moderator you should follow the guidelines set forth for a board. You are not posting promotional material about a mud (except maybe Samson's although I hardly think that qualifies) thus your posts should not even be here.  

Ytrewtsu - who thinks the replies on this thread are out of line and not consistent with the intent of the board.

[Samson]

Yes, you did. But since I'm honestly not convinced you did it to try and smooth things over, I'm not entirely sure you truly meant it. I'm more inclined to believe you've done so to try and make yourself look better in the eyes of others. In the words of someone else in this thread, I suspect you had other motives.

If I'm wrong, then I apologize in advance for being my usual cynical/paranoid self.