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KaVir · 02-19-2003, 11:39 AM

Ytrewtsu, this board is for posting adverts, true, but it's also for posting responses to those adverts - and that's what I did. While I agree that this thread has gotten somewhat out of hand, I would not consider it off-topic, but you'd really have to ask the moderator.

Samson, as should be readily apparent at this point, I do not write posts to try and "smooth things over". I state my mind. I did feel somewhat guilty about picking your mud, however - you just happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time during the discussion, just as I was looking for a more blatant way to get my point across, and provided me with the perfect opening. It was not personal.

Molly · 02-19-2003, 11:59 AM

Seriously, Kavir, this is way beneath you.

Over the years I haven’t always seen eye to eye with you, but I’ve always respected you – up till now.

Why do you keep making such an issue about these semantics? Sure – ‘underdog’ just MIGHT be considered having a negative ring by a few people. (From the look of this thread not to many though, most people seem to interpret it as mainly positive, which I am sure also was Brody’s intention). However, the word YOU used to hammer down your point – ‘loser’ – is generally interpreted as being an insult. I think you must see the difference here.

I tried to make a constructive suggestion myself somewhere back in the thread about choosing another word, later Brianna posted a similar advice. Brody choose not to take any of those. So what? It's his choice to make. Do you see Brianna or me throwing a hissy fit over that?

Even your usually faithful sidekick Dulan is saying that you come out a bit like a prick in this. Doesn’t that give you any suggestions?

What you are doing on this thread has gone far beyond ‘not being constructive’, you are being downright DEstructive – but more to your own reputation than to Brody’s.

So please, do us all a favour and end this now.

KaVir · 02-19-2003, 12:14 PM

Molly, the only reason the "underdog" thing kept coming up was because other people kept going on and on about it. I pointed out that it offended some people, and everyone else insisted on harping on about how it didn't matter, rather than addressing the main concern.

If you really want the thread to end, then why reiterate points which have already been covered and explained? Throwing childish insults is hardly the right way to end a flame war, either. So please, practice what you preach, and cut the whining.

Dulan · 02-19-2003, 12:34 PM

Untill now, I thought I had accomplished my goals within this thread - 1) Pointing out Brody's ulterior motives and showing that this 'goodness of the heart' and 'for the good of the Community' are nothing but BS. This is proved by his action of completely ignoring all suggestions, and casually brushing away of valid points that he does not want to answer - something completely unlike the Brody that I knew and respected. Past tense intended. (Want me to start a flamewar, anyone? Anyone? I've not been flaming yet, but there ARE parallels that can be drawn between the Third Reich and this. But, invoking Godwin's Law is not normally my style.) 2) I proved my vocal minority point. Very well.

Now, Molly, you've managed to drag me right back into this #### thread.

Everyone in this thread, INCLUDING myself, are behaving like asshats. Please, please don't put words in my mouth. Ever. Apologize, or please back your statement in which I stated outright that KaVir, and ONLY KaVir is behaving like an asshat. Furthermore, I believe I am owed an apology for the "sidekick" remark - KaVir is someone who I won't flame, that does not make me his sidekick. Furthermore, while one of my goals for this thread is similar to KaVir's goals, another is entirely different. One that actually conflicts with a goal of KaVir's, in fact, if you'd bother to pay attention for two seconds.

And I believe I am also owed an apology for calling MUDs losers by someone on this thread. Well? I'm waiting.

Furthermore, I wish that Brody would just come out and tell us why he is doing this. Statements like "good of the Community" and "goodness of his heart" are used by three people. Politicians, slimy lawyers, or people who want something and want to appear perfect while they get it (Both of the above?). This is a Psych major speaking, mind you - I'll even get off my arse and quote specific points from Psych books once I finish off with midterms to prove this point.

Now, Samson and KaVir - kiss and make up all damned ready. Samson: KaVir had a valid point, and he expressed it very well, with multiple disclaimers. Let it drop already - if even I saw it was not meant to be insulting, I am very sure you should be able to as well. I mean, ####, you've laid claim to being more mature then me, and you sure as #### aren't acting like it. KaVir: Perhaps you should have expressed your point in a slightly less offensive manner, or had more explicit disclaimers?

I mean, ####, I'M supposed to be the resident clueless flamer that never lets anything drop, and I'm getting irritated here! There are three valid points. A) Brody is dodging questions and ignoring suggestions, B) We are all acting like asshats, and C) This thread has lost its original point. Good god. I mean, even Samson is using the fallacy of distraction, and that's something I'd never expect from him - much less over something so silly as using his MUD to make a point!

Brody · 02-19-2003, 12:41 PM

No, really - if you want to look away from this episode of Fox's "When Good Forums Go Bad," you can find the real Underdogs thread at

Orion Elder · 02-19-2003, 01:23 PM

Azhon · 02-19-2003, 01:35 PM

This thing is still alive?

Amazing.

<more please>

Edit: <Insert mention of Medievia here to distract kavir and increase postage>

Orion Elder · 02-19-2003, 01:37 PM

KaVir · 02-19-2003, 01:50 PM

Orion, I ignored your insults and twisting of my words last time in the hope that you might be willing to discuss the issues like an adult. I'll do the same once more, and I urge you to consider seriously before replying this time, because if you really push me then I will indeed give you a flame war.

Or we could discuss this in a positive way, and perhaps turn this discussion into something constructive.

Your call.

Wik · 02-19-2003, 01:57 PM

Waitaminute. 13 pages of vehement posting isn't a flamewar? Beating down the little guy isn't a flamewar? Acting totally illogical and stubborn isn't the sign of a flamewar? Isn't this the guy that went and defined what it meant to flame a while back? How low the mighty have fallen.

KaVir · 02-19-2003, 02:03 PM

No, Wik, I've been holding myself back. I've been maintaining the hope that eventually, maybe, possibly, this can go somewhere constructive.

Riga · 02-19-2003, 02:14 PM

In an effort to twist this into something positive or constructive:

I wonder if in England (where KaVir is from), the word underdog has different connotations than in America. In America, underdog is generally a good thing. It's the little guy that everyone is cheering for. It's the guy that's not getting a fair shake because the odds are stacked against him, but he keeps on plugging away anyway. Maybe in England it has less positive associations?

Just a thought.

Samson · 02-19-2003, 02:16 PM

KaVir · 02-19-2003, 02:27 PM

I needed an example I could use to point out how I interpret the meaning of "underdog". At the very time I was trying to find a way to do so, you wrote a post saying how great you thought Brody's adverts were, and how you wished the unranked muds would also get a mention. That gave me exactly the sort of opening I needed to make my point. I later apologised because I had "used" your post to prove my point, at your expense - it hadn't been an attempt to insult your mud, but rather to prove how a so-called "non-offensive" advert could come across as being extremely insulting.

Brody · 02-19-2003, 02:34 PM

Need a distraction from the distraction? Visit the new home of Brody's Underdog MUD of the Day, in the Tavern of the Blue Hand topic.

Direct address:

Samson · 02-19-2003, 02:40 PM

Yes, I understand why you did it. That part wasn't lost on me. I could see it when you first posted it. The problem is that you're post was clearly intended to provoke a certain reaction, which it did. The wording of it was carefully chosen so as to assure that the reaction you wanted was what you got. Brody had no such intention, and indeed it wasn't labeled as offensive until you pointed it out. Even after that, only 1 or 2 people ( I can't recall now ) came to the same conclusion.

I'm rambling now though. Keeping track of all this is becoming a problem..... short attention span and all.

Dulan · 02-19-2003, 02:47 PM

Mason · 02-19-2003, 03:32 PM

I've seen some pointless threads in my day. H3ll, I've even been a major contributor to some pointless threads. But I think that this one definitely takes the cake.

Orion Elder · 02-19-2003, 03:59 PM

I twisted nothing. I simply pointed out how what you're doing is deplorable. You can take it as insults and twisting of your words, if you like... but I was simply pointing out what is going on.

KaVir, your threats mean as much to me as Dulan's threats. Which is to say, they mean nothing. If you want to talk, talk. If you want to flame, flame. If you want to gripe, gripe. But, don't try to be so pretentious as to imply I should be worried by your threats, and make no mistake that is EXACTLY what this is.

This thread lost to potential to be constructive when you found the need to CONSTANTLY hammer away at Brody when he was trying to keep the post from degrading into what it has become... an affront to common sense.

I'll see you and raise five 'E's.

Molly · 02-19-2003, 05:22 PM

Going for page 15th…

<Sarcasm:
Poor you. I can just picture you, being dragged, kicking and screaming, back to the kind of flamewar we all know that you so passionately dislike and fervently avoid…
End of Sarcasm>

Like Orion already pointed out, you said that KaVir was behaving like an asshat. You didn’t mention anyone else behaving like one. At least not in THAT context. Or anywhere else earlier in the thread, as far as I can see.

And while we are beating at semantics; Exactly WHERE did I say that you ‘stated outright that KaVir, and ONLY KaVir is behaving…’ etc?
All I did was quoting your own words.

Now you managed to make ME a bit irritated too. So let me continue this flamew… I mean nice and mature and 'constructive' little discussion by making this statement:

People who accuse other people of having ulterior motives are quite often the ones who hold the ulterior motives themselves.

So which are YOUR motives for bringing this question up repeatedly?

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02-19-2003, 11:39 AM	#121
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Ytrewtsu, this board is for posting adverts, true, but it's also for posting responses to those adverts - and that's what I did. While I agree that this thread has gotten somewhat out of hand, I would not consider it off-topic, but you'd really have to ask the moderator. Samson, as should be readily apparent at this point, I do not write posts to try and "smooth things over". I state my mind. I did feel somewhat guilty about picking your mud, however - you just happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time during the discussion, just as I was looking for a more blatant way to get my point across, and provided me with the perfect opening. It was not personal.

02-19-2003, 11:59 AM	#122
Molly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sweden Home MUD: 4 Dimensions Posts: 574	Seriously, Kavir, this is way beneath you. Over the years I haven’t always seen eye to eye with you, but I’ve always respected you – up till now. Why do you keep making such an issue about these semantics? Sure – ‘underdog’ just MIGHT be considered having a negative ring by a few people. (From the look of this thread not to many though, most people seem to interpret it as mainly positive, which I am sure also was Brody’s intention). However, the word YOU used to hammer down your point – ‘loser’ – is generally interpreted as being an insult. I think you must see the difference here. I tried to make a constructive suggestion myself somewhere back in the thread about choosing another word, later Brianna posted a similar advice. Brody choose not to take any of those. So what? It's his choice to make. Do you see Brianna or me throwing a hissy fit over that? Even your usually faithful sidekick Dulan is saying that you come out a bit like a prick in this. Doesn’t that give you any suggestions? What you are doing on this thread has gone far beyond ‘not being constructive’, you are being downright DEstructive – but more to your own reputation than to Brody’s. So please, do us all a favour and end this now.

02-19-2003, 12:14 PM	#123
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Molly, the only reason the "underdog" thing kept coming up was because other people kept going on and on about it. I pointed out that it offended some people, and everyone else insisted on harping on about how it didn't matter, rather than addressing the main concern. If you really want the thread to end, then why reiterate points which have already been covered and explained? Throwing childish insults is hardly the right way to end a flame war, either. So please, practice what you preach, and cut the whining.

02-19-2003, 12:34 PM	#124
Dulan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 354	Untill now, I thought I had accomplished my goals within this thread - 1) Pointing out Brody's ulterior motives and showing that this 'goodness of the heart' and 'for the good of the Community' are nothing but BS. This is proved by his action of completely ignoring all suggestions, and casually brushing away of valid points that he does not want to answer - something completely unlike the Brody that I knew and respected. Past tense intended. (Want me to start a flamewar, anyone? Anyone? I've not been flaming yet, but there ARE parallels that can be drawn between the Third Reich and this. But, invoking Godwin's Law is not normally my style.) 2) I proved my vocal minority point. Very well. Now, Molly, you've managed to drag me right back into this #### thread. Everyone in this thread, INCLUDING myself, are behaving like asshats. Please, please don't put words in my mouth. Ever. Apologize, or please back your statement in which I stated outright that KaVir, and ONLY KaVir is behaving like an asshat. Furthermore, I believe I am owed an apology for the "sidekick" remark - KaVir is someone who I won't flame, that does not make me his sidekick. Furthermore, while one of my goals for this thread is similar to KaVir's goals, another is entirely different. One that actually conflicts with a goal of KaVir's, in fact, if you'd bother to pay attention for two seconds. And I believe I am also owed an apology for calling MUDs losers by someone on this thread. Well? I'm waiting. Furthermore, I wish that Brody would just come out and tell us why he is doing this. Statements like "good of the Community" and "goodness of his heart" are used by three people. Politicians, slimy lawyers, or people who want something and want to appear perfect while they get it (Both of the above?). This is a Psych major speaking, mind you - I'll even get off my arse and quote specific points from Psych books once I finish off with midterms to prove this point. Now, Samson and KaVir - kiss and make up all damned ready. Samson: KaVir had a valid point, and he expressed it very well, with multiple disclaimers. Let it drop already - if even I saw it was not meant to be insulting, I am very sure you should be able to as well. I mean, ####, you've laid claim to being more mature then me, and you sure as #### aren't acting like it. KaVir: Perhaps you should have expressed your point in a slightly less offensive manner, or had more explicit disclaimers? I mean, ####, I'M supposed to be the resident clueless flamer that never lets anything drop, and I'm getting irritated here! There are three valid points. A) Brody is dodging questions and ignoring suggestions, B) We are all acting like asshats, and C) This thread has lost its original point. Good god. I mean, even Samson is using the fallacy of distraction, and that's something I'd never expect from him - much less over something so silly as using his MUD to make a point!

02-19-2003, 12:41 PM	#125
Brody Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: North Carolina Home MUD: OtherSpace Posts: 1,599	No, really - if you want to look away from this episode of Fox's "When Good Forums Go Bad," you can find the real Underdogs thread at

02-19-2003, 01:23 PM	#126
Orion Elder Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 346

02-19-2003, 01:35 PM	#127
Azhon Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 50	This thing is still alive? Amazing. <more please> Edit: <Insert mention of Medievia here to distract kavir and increase postage>

02-19-2003, 01:37 PM	#128
Orion Elder Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 346

02-19-2003, 01:50 PM	#129
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Orion, I ignored your insults and twisting of my words last time in the hope that you might be willing to discuss the issues like an adult. I'll do the same once more, and I urge you to consider seriously before replying this time, because if you really push me then I will indeed give you a flame war. Or we could discuss this in a positive way, and perhaps turn this discussion into something constructive. Your call.

02-19-2003, 01:57 PM	#130
Wik Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: OtherSpace Posts: 140	Waitaminute. 13 pages of vehement posting isn't a flamewar? Beating down the little guy isn't a flamewar? Acting totally illogical and stubborn isn't the sign of a flamewar? Isn't this the guy that went and defined what it meant to flame a while back? How low the mighty have fallen.

02-19-2003, 02:03 PM	#131
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	No, Wik, I've been holding myself back. I've been maintaining the hope that eventually, maybe, possibly, this can go somewhere constructive.

02-19-2003, 02:14 PM	#132
Riga New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 16	In an effort to twist this into something positive or constructive: I wonder if in England (where KaVir is from), the word underdog has different connotations than in America. In America, underdog is generally a good thing. It's the little guy that everyone is cheering for. It's the guy that's not getting a fair shake because the odds are stacked against him, but he keeps on plugging away anyway. Maybe in England it has less positive associations? Just a thought.

02-19-2003, 02:16 PM	#133
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249

02-19-2003, 02:27 PM	#134
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	I needed an example I could use to point out how I interpret the meaning of "underdog". At the very time I was trying to find a way to do so, you wrote a post saying how great you thought Brody's adverts were, and how you wished the unranked muds would also get a mention. That gave me exactly the sort of opening I needed to make my point. I later apologised because I had "used" your post to prove my point, at your expense - it hadn't been an attempt to insult your mud, but rather to prove how a so-called "non-offensive" advert could come across as being extremely insulting.

02-19-2003, 02:34 PM	#135
Brody Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: North Carolina Home MUD: OtherSpace Posts: 1,599	Need a distraction from the distraction? Visit the new home of Brody's Underdog MUD of the Day, in the Tavern of the Blue Hand topic. Direct address:

02-19-2003, 02:40 PM	#136
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249	Yes, I understand why you did it. That part wasn't lost on me. I could see it when you first posted it. The problem is that you're post was clearly intended to provoke a certain reaction, which it did. The wording of it was carefully chosen so as to assure that the reaction you wanted was what you got. Brody had no such intention, and indeed it wasn't labeled as offensive until you pointed it out. Even after that, only 1 or 2 people ( I can't recall now ) came to the same conclusion. I'm rambling now though. Keeping track of all this is becoming a problem..... short attention span and all.

02-19-2003, 02:47 PM	#137
Dulan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 354

02-19-2003, 03:32 PM	#138
Mason Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 158	I've seen some pointless threads in my day. H3ll, I've even been a major contributor to some pointless threads. But I think that this one definitely takes the cake.

02-19-2003, 03:59 PM	#139
Orion Elder Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 346	I twisted nothing. I simply pointed out how what you're doing is deplorable. You can take it as insults and twisting of your words, if you like... but I was simply pointing out what is going on. KaVir, your threats mean as much to me as Dulan's threats. Which is to say, they mean nothing. If you want to talk, talk. If you want to flame, flame. If you want to gripe, gripe. But, don't try to be so pretentious as to imply I should be worried by your threats, and make no mistake that is EXACTLY what this is. This thread lost to potential to be constructive when you found the need to CONSTANTLY hammer away at Brody when he was trying to keep the post from degrading into what it has become... an affront to common sense. I'll see you and raise five 'E's.

02-19-2003, 05:22 PM	#140
Molly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sweden Home MUD: 4 Dimensions Posts: 574	Going for page 15th… <Sarcasm: Poor you. I can just picture you, being dragged, kicking and screaming, back to the kind of flamewar we all know that you so passionately dislike and fervently avoid… End of Sarcasm> Like Orion already pointed out, you said that KaVir was behaving like an asshat. You didn’t mention anyone else behaving like one. At least not in THAT context. Or anywhere else earlier in the thread, as far as I can see. And while we are beating at semantics; Exactly WHERE did I say that you ‘stated outright that KaVir, and ONLY KaVir is behaving…’ etc? All I did was quoting your own words. Now you managed to make ME a bit irritated too. So let me continue this flamew… I mean nice and mature and 'constructive' little discussion by making this statement: People who accuse other people of having ulterior motives are quite often the ones who hold the ulterior motives themselves. So which are YOUR motives for bringing this question up repeatedly?