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Old 07-31-2006, 04:24 PM   #21
Gorilla J
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No. We like being bitter.

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Old 07-31-2006, 06:04 PM   #22
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Yes, I have done these things on other MUDs. with Medievia's playerbase size, a 30 person PK battle is not extremely impressive. I play MUDs that peak at 40 players logged on at the same time, that get battles that large going and have better combat systems.

I'm not saying that Medievia is an awful MUD, and I'm not even raising the issue of morality here. It's not the purpose of the thread, I do not believe. However, you asked a few questions - and my answer is yes. I've yet to see a feature on Medievia(beyond their admittedly well-done overhead map) that I have not seen a better version of elsewhere.

And to Soleil: Any of us Admins that held a poll of why people play our MUDs on our forums would get the typical ass-kissing of players who are a) so obsessed with the game or b) so obsessed with gaining favor, would get incredibly prolific responses from our playerbase as to "why this game is the best". They all sum up to the same sentence, though;

"I love MUD X, because I've been there and the people are soooo awesome and it's sooo fun and there's soooo much to do and I've been there since the dawn of tiiiime!! *smooch smooch, drool*"

It doesn't invalidate any of the points made in this thread, however, to point out this flaw in forum polls by trying to use it to divert a valid assessment of a game. :-p
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:14 PM   #23
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There are indeed a lot of people who enjoy Medievia and while I'll be the first to admit it may not be everyone's cup of tea, it has features that you're unlikely to find anywhere else.
For one thing, Medievia is not a game that you play to "win". Medievia is a cumulative experience. Each play period gains the character/player more experience and knowledge to play even further. Honing and developing skills for a variety of player kill scenerios, and learning equipment zones which are enhanced by the possibility of being overrun by other players.
No, Medievia is not "immersive" in the way that many role playing games are. But it is immersive in the fact that you come to rely quite heavily on other players who can aid your successes or your defeats.
Interestingly enough, while I have seven years of playing Medievia, it continues to add new zones, new modules, and yeah, new players, to a degree that it really never grows old.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is, everyone has different tastes, but for those who are looking for a MuD that is creative, constantly changing, hugely expansive in its scope, and has some very unique modules (i.e., ships), this is something to try.
I am quite certain someone will come along and post something nasty and hateful, but it doesn't negate the reality that this is a game that hundreds of people have played for a decade or more. It's a rich, complex enviroment that is takes full advantage of the unpredictability of the human component.
Say what you will (and there are always those who leave the topic to rehash tired old flames), but the game is fun, vibrant and alive.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:33 PM   #24
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The original poster, Jeena, is new to MUDs. Just thought I'd make that clear first.

Those are all things that are offered in countless other MUDs. Ships - offered in countless other MUDs. How can you say that Medievia has features you will not find anywhere else, and then submit a list of features that I can find many different places?

I'm not being hateful, I'm just submitting the idea that Medievia tends to talk up its typical features as being extra-ordinary. Obivously they do well for themselves - financially and population-size seem to be doing just fine on the game. However, the concept of this thread is to say that it is probably not because of features, as they really don't offer anything that isn't offered elsewhere. Infact, as we've described, many of their gameplay elements are actually kind of boring - I found this to be true when I played.

Yes, different strokes for different folks - you can absolutely love Medievia... it's your right. However, to call it unique... well - the only things I can think of that are unique about Medievia(besides its mapping system, which is pretty cool) are all bad things. The rest is just Medievia's version of typical add-ons to MUDs.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:39 PM   #25
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Jeena,

There's no hate here that I see. None from me, certainly.

Even though some people can be unhinged in their
criticism of Medievia's admins, you must allow for the possibility
that people criticizing the substance of Medievia's features
really might be just stating facts.

In this case, it sounds to me like you really love the social
aspect of it, and that's awesome. Speaking for myself, I don't
want to suggest your experiences are somehow inauthentic.
I doubt anyone here would, since we're all mud enthusiasts
of one stripe or another.

What we're talking about is not the validity of the players'
experiences. What we're talking about is the technical merit
of the mud, and frankly, from what I've read of your post,
you don't really understand what we're talking about. Ships,
for example, are not an especially difficult thing to
implement, and many muds have impressive ship travel,
ship combat, etc. From a technical standpoint, suggesting
a mud is outstanding for its social aspect and its ships is like
saying that some brand of car is great because it gets
you where you're going and it has power locks. There's just
nothing all that special about it.

And that's the question. Not whether you suck for playing on
Medievia, which is an argument I've yet to hear.

The question is, how is it that Medievia is such a totally
ordinary mud, yet popular enough that people will go so
far as to pay money to play it.

-Crat
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:40 PM   #26
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What objective drawbacks have been mentioned? I've heard people say that Medievia has some features they don't like or lacks some features they'd like, but those are just personal preference issues. They're only drawbacks to those people and people with similar preferences.

Suggesting that "the player base doesn't know better" is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand, with a healthy dose of patronizing attitude thrown in to boot. The playerbase does know better. I'd be willing to bet you your last dollar that virtually every single player in Medievia is aware of alternative online games they could be playing, but they choose to play Medievia instead.

--matt
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:45 PM   #27
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He likely was insinuating by saying "players do not know better", that players may not be aware that features that they love on Medievia are common place on other MUDs, especially if many of them not long-time MUDers.

Now, I would not venture to assume this, myself, but I do not believe he meant that; "Medievia players do not know better than to know that Medievia sucks and there are better games."
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:46 PM   #28
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:49 PM   #29
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Occam's Razor: It's not ordinary.

I've never played it, but it doesn't matter if most of its features are duplicated somewhere else. The same is true of World of Warcraft and Runescape, but that hasn't stopped millions of people from enjoying them. There is no game -exactly- like Medievia, and it is Medievia, not the individual systems, that people are playing.

Medievia, or indeed any MUD, isn't a bunch of unrelated systems put together that may be individual dismissed. The whole is often greater than the sum of the parts.

Let's use sitcoms as an example: How many nearly-identical-in-concept sitcoms do you think have aired and been cancelled in the last, say, 25 years? I haven't counted, but it's quite a large number. Most of those had all the basic elements of a Cheers, a Seinfeld, or a Friends. What made those super-hits and the others forgotten nothings had nothing to do with the individual 'systems'. Cheers didn't invent a new setting and call it a 'bar'. Seinfeld didn't invent wacky neighbors. What those shows did do was execute those concepts very well.

--matt
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:55 PM   #30
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The MUD I spent the most time playing (Avalon) before starting Achaea in '96 had no races. It's a completely valid choice to make.

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Old 07-31-2006, 06:55 PM   #31
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In fact, over the years I have played many MuD's, and a few Mushes thrown in as well.  So perhaps what was just said is right, it's a matter of personal preference. I don't see anything that Medievia advertising has put out there as untruthful or exaggerated. Quite the opposite, I think it's virtually impossible to impress upon a potential player the social and playing aspects in a way ythat really highlights what you can get from the game.
But, I am the first to admit that if you need graphics, you won't find them in Med. If you need the "thees and thous" of roleplaying you aren't going to find it in Med either. What I've found is aggravation, competition, rivalries, friendship, enemies, and all the other things people find when they play a game long term. Do I think Med is the best MuD out there? Sure I do. Am I biased? Sure. But who can really tell you what a game is about? I mean, there must be some reason why I, and so many others, love the game as much as we do... that should be worth checking out anyway.
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:39 PM   #32
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Of course it's a "completely valid choice" to leave any of your muds features exactly the same as they were in the stock codebase you started from. The four stock classes you started out with 13 years ago. The lack of races your Diku derivative came with. The automated combat system consisting of typing "kill" then sitting back to watch the show. These are all "valid choices" - indeed, leaving the entire mud as stock would be a "valid choice".

However the original poster specifically stated that he created the thread with the intent of finding other people's opinions, and that's what I think we should concentrate on.

What's your opinion about the endless Diku muds with their stock features, Matt? Don't you think some people might be tired of them? Perhaps prefer something more professional?

What are your views on automated combat? I once heard someone refer to such combat systems as a "joke" - do you think that's a reasonable statement?
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:06 PM   #33
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Well, that's not necessarily true, at least as far as the social aspect goes. Different MUDs have different cultures and social scenes. It's possible the Med culture is appealing to a wider variety of people.

Personally, my theory is that Med thrives, essentially, by being populist. It's the McDonalds, Wal-Mart, or vanilla of MUDs. McDonalds isn't the only place in the world with chicken sandwiches or salads, but you can bet they get people in the door by advertising them.

More people would want to play a no-RP MUD than a RP MUD, so that's what Med is. More people want to play a simpler game, so that's what Med is. More people want to play a game where you never are forced to take real PvP risks or seriously compete. so that's what Med is. (But there's bits of risky opt-in-only PK so people who want to be badass posers can -- just as McDonalds has the Filet-o-Fish for those seafood cravings.)

It doesn't make design choices that strongly appeal to niche audiences, doesn't do anything particularly distinctive or daring. That philosophy, ironically, is what's distinct. I personally can't stand vanilla, but you know, a lot of people think it's great. If you're only going to sell one flavor, you're not going out of business selling vanilla. It's the same way with Med, and its mainstream appeal is as incomprehensible to MUD connoisseurs as Budweiser as the King of Beers is to beer aficionados.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:11 PM   #34
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Soleil,

I have been reading your posts and giving them
consideration. I have been replying to them in good faith.

Your statement that I think the testimonials are "inaccurate" is
offensive. I never said any such thing. Either you've set up
a straw man argument, or you really have no idea what
I've been talking about.

I'm beginning to feel that you're using your words in a
dishonest fashion, strictly for public effect, and not for
advancing the topic in a legitimate way.

All I'm doing is expressing surprise that you're not bothering to
attempt to refute the points raised here. Given that your stated
job is "Director of Media & Marketing", I would have expected
you to take the time to explain to us why these interpretations
are mistaken.

Instead you copy and paste testimonials, and then misrepresent
the statements made that you didn't like.

Whether you're a true believer and don't see anything wrong,
or you're a cynical (and rather lazy) manipulator, the image
you're giving is a darn negative one.

Well, I guess that's your "cup of tea".

In any case, I tried to access your philosophy page but got
a 404. I'll see if I can find a google archived copy.

-Crat
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:40 PM   #35
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Kavir wrote:
Yep. Of course, there aren't any entirely stock DIKUs/Mercs/etc I'm aware of that are as popular as Medievia is.

My opinion about the endless DIKUs are that most of them are crap and it shows in the fact that nobody plays most of them. Medievia, on the other hand, is quite popular and that says to me that there's more there than meets the eye.

I dislike automated combat as I've seen it instituted in the past.

Having not played Medievia, I couldn't tell you whether I like their combat system or not. It certainly seems that lots of people do though.

--matt
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:41 AM   #36
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We're talking about a mud with many stock features and nothing that really makes it stand out. The two main things it has which the hundreds of similar muds lack is a large playerbase and a decent advertising budget - and we know that much of its advertising is targetted at non-mudders. Earlier you mentioned Occam's Razor. Well, applying that logic I think it's reasonable to assume a connection between those two points (playerbase and advertising).

Considering the amount of advertising you do for your muds (banners and the like) I'm assuming you've also found that paid advertising is worth the investment.

This is hardly groundbreaking stuff. I can think of dozens of awful computer games I've seen on stores shelves, each of which has almost certainly had more players (and made more money) than even the most successful and well-designed mud. Even was a financial success, and I doubt many people would say that was because of its quality gameplay...
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:24 AM   #37
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I don't feel that I need to explain anything to this forum. As I've said before, everyone likes different games. Our website does a great job at showing what Medievia is and if someone is really interested past reading the website, they will log into the game and find out for themselves. I already said, a few times, that games like Medievia are not for everyone and that is just fine by me. We have many players who like our system and whether it be "vanilla" or "stock with snippets" according to some of you, we still get lots of old and new players logging in daily. I have given player testimonials on the game and several Medievia players have posted about the game themselves. I'm sorry if you are not satisfied with my posts, but what does it matter? You probably have already made your mind up about Medievia anyway and will never consider playing it.

And as for the 404, it was because I spelled Philosophy wrong. I fixed it in the original post.

Kavir, when was the last time you played Medievia to Hero? Until you do, I suggest you stop making broad generalizations about the game you really know nothing about.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:25 AM   #38
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That sounds a lot like "Please Mindlessly grind in our game for 300 hours, then you can start having fun."
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:32 AM   #39
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It really is, and that's not me slamming you.

I have friends who are beer snobs. They exclusively drink more expensive microbrewed beers. A few even brew their own. They can't fathom how anyone could drink Budweiser, and by saying that I don't mean they can't understand why anyone would prefer Bud, I mean they can't understand why anyone would even put it in their mouth on purpose.

And yet, for all of that, Budweiser breweries spill more beer on the floor each year than the microbrewery of their choice sells. Which, then, is the better beer? Like almost anything else, it's a matter of opinion.

Often they'll swear that if all the people drinking Bud tried a "real beer", they'd never be able to drink Bud again, just as you'll often see people here saying that if Med players tried a real MUD they'd never go back.

In both cases, this is true to a degree, and false to a degree. Let's take a Med player whose favorite part of the game is the limited PvP aspects. Get them to try some of the "better" PvP MUDs out there, possibly including some with Diku roots (e.g. Shattered Kingdoms, Carrion Fields) but much greater tactical depth and possibly including some with deep but very different systems (e.g. Godwars 2, Achaea). Now, I bet if you did that 10 times (substitute different kinds of MUDs for Med players who prefer different aspects of Med), a few of them would leave for one of the new MUDs and never come back.

But, you know? I bet most of them would prefer Med and go back to it, genuinely convinced that it's better. You can get people to try out microbrew beers, but some people just prefer Budweiser.

And now off on a tangent:

You're not actually saying that there's nothing special to distinguish your game before the n-hundred-hours-in endgame, are you? It sounds like you're saying that, but that can't possibly be true?
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:47 AM   #40
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No, I'm not saying that. What I was trying to say is that Kavir shouldn't speak so absolutely about a game that he has never (I think) and will never play.

However, the game does get more fun the higher level you get. The beginning is a bit of grinding to get experience, yes. Personally, I'd say that you have to complete your first class (31 levels) to get the full Medievia experience. But, you can absolutely have fun in Medievia at any level. We have many long term players (5 or more years) and a lot of effort has gone into developing the endgame so that those players have a variety of things to do. But that does not mean that the game isn't fun for lower level characters either. Again, it boils down to the fact that it's just a matter of opinion what is considered fun.
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