[Erisine]

I'm amazed this thread is still chugging along.... but I guess I'll feed the beast like everyone else. First off...

Darren, can you make it through one thread without talking about Castle Marrach? We all understand, you hate that game and its administration. I used to work on a game that committed so many atrocious crimes of management that I was once accused of single-handedly "decimating" the playerbase and plotting the demise of the game during a time period in which I was not even actively logging in or keeping contact with players or staff. Quite frankly, they think I am Satan Incarnate, and I think they're a bunch of bigoted sociopaths who use childish games and deception to politic their way around. That said, I do keep in mind that the game provides an experience, one that appeals to a certain type of player, so if I see someone wanting a game suggestion that might fit that particular game, I will suggest it. I also don't make it a habit to thoroughly drag the game and its administrators through the mud (MUD..hehe) over here on TMS, unless there is good reason to. Their mismanagement will destroy their own game, I need not help them -- and you, thus, need not help Castle Marrach.

Secondly... Well, I guess I have to post something relevant to the thread so that I look legit. Let's see, uh...

Nothing will ever change the fact that players who invest more time in an activity will always have a greater return come from that activity. In RP MUDs, that means that they will be more well-known and players will OOCly know that if they need them for something -- like a spontaneous request -- that they are far more likely to be around and reachable first. Administrators will see these players and know that they are HABITUAL, so they are less risky of a time investment when deciding who to leak RPT encounters to. Whether you like it or not, you have an OOC reputation. If you log in only every so often or in short bursts, but always participate actively in RPTs when presented, then you will get more attention. If you log in, check your mail, and log out, you will be ignored -- because you have shown no effort to let anyone know you want to play. Simple as that.

In the end, you cannot run or involve yourself in an RPT if the majority of your time on the game is spent in that game's web forums. To expect a bigger role is just selfish. Shame on you. SHAAAAME. And stuff.

[arden]

TBH darren your Flaming of castle marrick as actually made me want to play it to see exactly what you are complaining about.

i guess all publicity IS good publicity

--EDIT--
or not as its P2P

[Delerak]

Go play an RPI; ie: armageddon, shadows of isildur, or the new atonement if you're into sci-fi. All are great muds for roleplaying and your expectations to "not write anything" is the dumbest **** I've ever read on a MUDDING forum. All you do on a mud is type and write and describe things. Give me a break.

[SnowTroll]

Quit exaggerating what the OP said. Surely, you understand the difference between roleplaying descriptively with the guy in front of you, and being required to write a four-paragraph essay on some game topic for eventual review by another player.

[Darren Brimhall]

Well good luck then.

Its your $13.00


Darren Brimhall

[silvarilon]

Castle Marrach is P2P, but also has a free trial.

Sign up, and play for a month for free without giving them any payment information.

You'll get to see whether the game is worthwhile, and you'll get to see the things Darren is talking about (or not see them)
Either way, that first month is the hardest, since many players ignore new arrivals with the expectation that most new players don't stick around. So they wait and see if you stick around and start playing before putting much effort into RPing with you.

Which means you see the worst of the game in that first month. If you still feel it's a fun game (and worth the cost) then you'll be right, since it'll get better after that point once your character gets known and players realize you are paying (and therefore likely to be sticking around.)

Of course, not all players are like that. Many will involve new players, and when they do the experience can be amazing.

My impression is that when you get that "right" plot happening in Castle Marrach the game is amazing. And much of the rest of the time you are really just marking time and waiting for things to happen. (Which is why it's a pity more players there aren't proactive about making things happen.)

... and this is a tangent, since the thread isn't about Castle Marrach. But I think it's still relevant. People talk about only putting in 10 minutes a day, vs 12 hours - but I think one of the keys is investment.

Someone who puts in 12 hours a day, but changes characters every two days isn't going to get nearly as far as someone who puts in 10 minutes a day, but uses those to write to other characters, gather gossip about what's happening, and involve themselves in the plot.

P2P games turn a lot of players off (understandably!) but they also tend to have a higher level of investment from the players (since you typically value things more if you pay for them.)
Of course, that's not the only way to get investment. Making players write long essays to join a guild creates investment, too.
If players feel that they had a "cost" to earn something, they are less likely to want to give that "something" up.

Of course, that doesn't mean there can't be fun ways to get that investment. Making someone feel like a special part of a group creates investment. Having a character history involving the group or game creates investment. Having fun initiation ceremonies creates investment.

And I do think we need investment if you want an in-depth game with politics and solid roleplaying. Even if that investment comes from players logging in for 10 minutes a day and slowly but consistently working towards a goal.

More time online doesn't necessarily mean more value to the game.

And I urge you all to try out some P2P games. Just try free trials, since I'm not trying to convince you to spend your money. Have a look at how the player atmosphere, and their opinions on roleplaying are different. (Not better or worse, just different) due to the payments changing the way they view the game. Do the same with a few pay-for-perks games, and a few free games. It's interesting how it effects the game atmosphere.

[Darren Brimhall]

There's also other matters to consister about Marrach.

For the most part, it's Favor Based. Meaning actions speak louder than words, depending on who you're trying to gain favor with--that's if a.) you are able to speak with them at all, and b.) they think your interesting enough to deal with.

Yes, they do hold 'Open Sessons" for this and that--but its limited largely to Sword Practices, Crafter's Classes, and maybe a few events that occur here and there. However, you need to acheve Honored Guest status to really be able to become involved in the more serious 'plots' (I put that in quotes because because what passes for plots there wouldn't past muster anywhere else) to beable to own a sword and to get into the Inner Bailey. To acheve that, please refer to a. and b. above.

If you cannot acheve either with your character before the end of your free trial, spend your $13 on gasoline--its a better investment. Because 'freezing out' newbies is a common occurance there, largely due to the number of Alt characters you can have (up to five), and each enter the Game in exactly the same way. So don't be taken back if the established there think your actually one of them, as was the case eariler this year when many new arrivals already came knowing 'how' to backstab and do it quite viciously (that bit of knowledge I thank Keir's player for, who not only left Marrach but Skotos all together because he was 'bored' with it--I'll addess that later on in this Post)

Now, if you manage to make a good enough impression by the end of your trial, and believe its worth the $13, then expect after nine months to a year of hard work to make it to Honored Guest--which is average, and leaves your options open as to where you can go. If you get the position in less time, exspect other players, especially those who've been there longer and worked just as hard to sinpe at you. Because certain players whom I've had bad dealings with, and who are 'protected' from harm by Staff, are the biggest offenders of IC/OOC Crossover.

It's one thing to be liked InCharacter, but its entirely different to be liked Out Of Character--because if you catch the eye of those with Staff Favor, you will be promoted up the Chain at a much faster rate over those who've worked harder. All of you know this, and most likely exsperienced it in other games. It's here too.

Marrach is an even worse offender because the players of the Game's standing Nobles (not those characters who earned the title from the Outer Bailey) and Royalty are drawn from the Player Base--as is the Game's Staff. So, if you anger a established player(s), as I did because I refused to play my characters as they wanted them played and complained bitterely about it to their friends on Staff, don't expect any further upward movement throuigh the ranks until those players no longer play those characters--or their friends.

Now, once you've made Honored Guest, you can now enter the Inner Bailey where your character had been be mindful of both their manners and dress, or the first knight, noble or elsewise egotistical resident there will burn your character right on the spot. If you are able to avoid this, you will start to discover that the deeper your character becomes involved in this with in the Inner the more shallow they become.

One of the Game's selling points is Courtly Intrigue. Well, forget it--there isn't any. Adventure is in the hands of those players with pull (which leaves around 70% out the player base out of most of the action), and Romance cannot be found.

Remember in the last paragraph what I said about angering established player(s) and the fact that all standing Nobles and Royalty are drawn from a pool of established players? Well, now you'll see how wrong that is--because the Nobles don't plot against the Royalty as you would expect with Courtly Intrigue. They're played by their friends, and will not hurt their friends. Oh, there's nothing that'll stop them from making Alts, which they can go after each other with--but heaven forbit they hurt their favored characters. This results in a very shallow game with no dimention that has no real oversight to prevent cheating from occuring.

Another effect is Stagnation, with no real desire to hurt or harm their friends, or their characters, those striving to climb the Great Chain hit the Glass Ceiling because of all the longstanding characters in place on its upper regions who've been there for a very long time--who will not move because their players don't want them removed, even if it's in the best interests of the Game. They'll only move if something better is offered, and that means the distruction of the Royal's which isn't going to happen. So after two years, or less, of this the average Gamer is most likely to leave because of boredom with the place, or finding even better fair out there.

Russell Davies has the right ideal with Torchwood; you cannot expect the audiance to have much connection with the characters if they keep surviving every serious encounter. Some of them have to die--perminately--so to give the story a dimention it would not otherwise have. You wont find this occuring in Marrach to any longstanding characters, not at all.

So, if you make it through the first month, I estimate you will stay their maybe two years before becomming bored with the place. Silvarilon made a very good point about the place that I only touched on;

You'll get to see whether the game is worthwhile, and you'll get to see the things Darren is talking about (or not see them)Either way, that first month is the hardest, since many players ignore new arrivals with the expectation that most new players don't stick around. So they wait and see if you stick around and start playing before putting much effort into RPing with you.

In my first years there, I played a Awakener, whose job it was to help all Newlies become adjusted in the Castle. And when I eventually lead the group, I was able to exspand it to its largest size...
When I left that place (and it wasn't because of making Death Threats--because I wouldn't be playing Ironclaw there today), there was barely anyone playing a Awakener so the job was handled by the Office of Royal Orders, where my main character ended up after being forced from Carpentry--just exsisting.

What caused me to finally leave was what a so-called friend told me about various points in the Game (in an OOC driven effort to alter how I played my character) over Yahoo Chat (which didn't result in any punishment against her when it was reported, How my immediate boss at eterena was treated (and she was a mid-level Staffer), player attitutres against my character's desire to return to Carpentry and how terribly a player I was helping with the Game, whose ADHD effected her memory, was treated (and still continues to be treated) made me finally leave that place.


If offered the chance, I'll return--just to set in motion such an upheval that would free up space at the upper end of the Chain, as it should occur from time to time with Courtly Intrigue. There's nothing like a really good scandal to shake things up.


Darren Brimhall
O

[Darren Brimhall]

[quote=silvarilon;46763]
My impression is that when you get that "right" plot happening in Castle Marrach the game is amazing. And much of the rest of the time you are really just marking time and waiting for things to happen. (Which is why it's a pity more players there aren't proactive about making things happen.)
[quote]


Waiting around is a sad fact.

A lot of people tried doing this there, including myself. And were told 'No' in a wide veriety of ways.

Its a matter of two things; Harddrive space on the Server and popularity with Staff. One they can get buy removing the less popular Games, but the other is just about insermountable.

They have a system set up, I was told, especially for Magic. But for some reason, they wont use it.

That's the way it was when I left, almost ten years after starting out as a Beta Tester there. In December of 2010, they stll hadn't gotten it going.

Who know what they're doing now.

Darren Brimhall

[Genesis]

You'll have to pardon Darren's bitterness. Darren seemed to think Castle Marrach was pretty good for the 8 years he played it until being banned for obsessive crossover and OOC stalkeresque behaviour. If he weren't banned I'm sure he would still be over there exhibiting the same excessive lack of IC/OOC seperation between himself and his character that he's shown on both the forums here and the Castle Marrach forums under the same account name.


Going back to the topic at hand, I don't think the OP is going to find a game that closely resembles particularly what's been described. Simply because some of the things being asked for are contradictory in typical MUDs. For example OP wants a game specifically with good politics but doesn't want to have to "ass kiss to 40 other people" and doesn't want to deal with guilds or applications. Pretty well contradictory in my experience, unless we have drastically differing opinions of how one defines "good politics" This can extend to a number of examples that I won't get into for the sake of brevity.

Of course, it's totally legit for the OP to have their own "dream MUD" they want to play, I'm sure we all do, and I don't see why anyone takes exception to them posting in search of it, that is what this forum is for after all. I doubt a game closely following the criteria provided exists however.

[silvarilon]

I could imagine "good politics" without ass-kissing or guild applications.

I can't particularly imagine political intrigue between players, as that gets competitive, is mostly hidden, so it appears on the surface like one player suddenly smashed the other player in what probably appears to be an unfair way (since nobody else saw the preparations.) - The players who don't log in regularly would be at a severe disadvantage in that sort of game.

I *can* imagine the game staff setting up a political situation, and obstacles. So the players band together to sort out the political situation. Invading armies, an aggressive diplomat causing trouble, PCs being asked to act as jury in a trial, etc. could all be very fun political situations where a player who logs in for 10 mins a day could jump into the middle of the scene if they happen to be online while it happens, and don't lose anything if they aren't online.

I dread to imagine the amount of staff work it would take to maintain a game like that, though. Since all the gameplay has to be generated by staff, rather than players generating it for each other.

Then again, for other people, "politics" just means that the mob they are slaughtering is wearing a different colored shirt, because of the "plot" where redshirts have taken over the woods, and chased out the blueshirts. Y'know? Like how you could say "Mass Effects had good politics" because there was a story about politics, but when it came down to things, the story would continue essentially the same, and most of your political choices just mean you end up on a different mission where you still just shoot things. (Not criticizing ME, I enjoy the game. Just comparing the different sorts of "politics" you get in games.)

And yet for other people, politics means OOC-popularity-contest. Or it could mean that there are guilds to join. Or it could mean that the characters attend court and deliver flowery speeches to change the in-character city policies. Or it could mean...

I'm trying to build a "political game" and I'm still amazed at how everyone has a different idea of what "politics" are in the game

[Darren Brimhall]

First, last December in fact, it was said that the cause of my banning was due to making 'Death Threats'.

Now, its because I'm a 'Stalker'--and by another first time poster. Interesting that this person used a post made quite a while back, and not something more recent--like this past Monday. Castle Marrach was fun, until I saw how one with disabilities was treated with distain, and how Staff protected its favored.

I also find it interesting that like the poster who accused me of making Death Threats there, this new one also registered back in December of 2010--and only now has made their first post.

What I posted was to give Arden, and anyone else, and good ideal of what he'd exspect to find there.

That's al

Darren Brimhall

[SnowTroll]

People. Do. Not. Care. About. Individual. Past. Issues. With. Castle. Marrach.

I don't know who pays money for the privilege of cooperative storytelling about waking up in a castle with amnesia, and I don't care. I can have cooperative storytelling around a tabletop game, with far more interesting backstories and plots.

I don't know who runs the game or what they do that's so bad. I don't know who plays the game or what they do that's so bad. I don't care.

Post reviews about a specific mud in a thread for that purpose. Quit working this subject into dozens of entirely unrelated threads. If I have to read one more thread that includes a "You hate muds that have Elves? That's so interesting. You know what I hate? Castle Marrach" post, I'm going to get super angry.

[Genesis]

I should clarify, the OP said he did not want guilds in general, not specifically "guild applications". Big difference.

Politics can generally be described as the act of making allies with those who are powerful and using those alliances to further your goals (typically in such a manner that makes you as few enemies as possible). By very definition, politics can almost be metaphorically summed up as "ass kissing". Especially when you're newer and younger to the various political circles, but even the most powerful and prominent politicians need to know how to keep the lessers appeased. I can't imagine a game world with interesting politics that doesn't involve a decent amount of ass kissing, lieing, scheming, etc. Of course, politics doesn't have to necessarily equate to "black politics" or underhanded political maneuvers... but where's the fun if it doesn't?

Further, no, you don't need guilds for politics, but it certainly helps. What is a guild? By defininition, a group of people with common objectives and the means to help each other strive towards that objective. That's pretty well exactly what a political party is. One can have a degree of politics without calling it a "guild", but eventually once the game playerbase reaches any respectable size, players with similar political goals will form together (especially if the game is centered around political intrigue as the OP has requested) and even if not in the capacity as an official recognized "group" they will essentially serve that purpose. And so at that point, in regards to guilds, one has to ask, "why not?"

Ideally any MUD, no matter what the main theme of the game is, should allow the players to pursue the main theme of the game without needing staff guidance. In the case of a politically centered MUD, player characters should be able to pursue and influence the course of the game's politics without needing staff or staff-played characters consistently watching over their shoulder.

Typically in such games, staff controlled NPCs are used to guide the game through holding numerous political positions of importance within the fictional society the game world revolves around, but player characters should be able to influence the outcome of things and work on their own political schemes and treaties with and against other player characters as well as the aforementioned NPCs to influence the political scales.

We should keep in mind there is a difference between a intrigue/political based MUD and a MUD which happens to have politics in it. As all MUDs are highly social (at least those MUDs that encourage RP) some level of politics is virtually inevitable no matter how small scale. However a game which focuses around and is designed for politics needs much more to work with. I would not call a game centered around combat and fighting which happens to have two sides opposing each other a "politically focused MUD". Mind you I have not played Mass Effect myself.

I would hope in any respectable MUD in which an IC environment is enforced that OOC popularity would not be a deciding factor on the outcome of IC politics. Of course it does happen to an extent no matter the efforts of game staff to ensure IC/OOC separation. :-/

An example of a political scenario from a MUD I currently play;

The right-hand of the leader of a particularly dominant organization within the game world (we will call him 'Bad Bob') is known for being typically underhanded. The actual leader of this party (who we will call Elmo) is more of a figurehead than anything, it is Big Bob who makes most of the decisions, generally done in Elmo's name. Big Bob is careful in consolodating both his own power and the power of his party, many of the actions he takes are illegal and done behind closed doors, with only vague, carefully phrased reports ever given to Elmo of what is actually being done in his name.

Elmo had decided after a long conflict with a rivalling House to make peace with this House - while Elmo's house may have had the might to crush the opposing House, the opposing House itself was still no small fry, and it would have vastly drained Elmo's resources and left his House vulnerable to attacks from other parties after the dust had settled (or worse, before).

Big Bob is displeased with this truce despite his insistence to Elmo that a truce was not necessary. Big Bob goes behind Elmo's back and begins making covert, untraceable attacks against the rivalling House despite the truce using various nefarious means (assassinations, kidnappings, sabotage and subterfuge). By chance and through her own caution and tactfulness, the leader of the opposing House (let's go with Morganna) discovers the attacks her. Morganna does not retaliate, but instead watches, carefully minimizing the damages to her own resources but allowing the attacks to continue without response - she does this because she knows she is being goaded; Big Bob wants Ernie to retaliate, because if she does, Big Bob can use that attack to convince Elmo that it was in fact Morganna's house who broke the treaty, thus giving Elmo the open conflict he desires.

For the sake of brevity, I'll sum it up that Morganna managed to get in contact with Elmo and Elmo discovered Big Bob's treachery through various carefully planned maneuvers.

Such however is what I would consider a good example of a decent politically themed plot in a roleplay intensive intrigue based MUD. Knowing when to strike and who, other than the immediate target, might be affected by that strike, and who might kick you while you're down. Knowing how to lure your enemies into making moves that would ultimately prove harmful to themselves. Etcetera.

What game is that? Perhaps I can throw you a few ideas if you have a rough idea of what you want the game world to look like.

Sounds like you got problems then.

I used a quote from the thread I was posting in anyway. Is there a more suitable temper tantrum you would prefer me to quote you on?

You find a lot of things "interesting". Sadly, they're still irrelevant.

[silvarilon]

I pretty much agree with everything Genesis said, the explanations on my comments are pretty much where my thought process was heading.

That's not surprising, as we both come from the "Skotos games" so there has already been a lot of cross-pollination of ideas about roleplaying and politics between the games.

I do still think that although our thoughts are similar, and we both know what we mean when we say "political RP" there are still many players (from our games and others) that mean something completely different.

(Genesis: I'm always open to more ideas on handling political RP. It's Azrael from ICO here...)

(Also, to clarify the Mass Effects comparison, it's a game that switches between walking around talking to NPCs (with the usual "select a response from this list" interactions) and combat scenes. Throughout the game, whether in RP or Combat, you get to make choices, some bigger than others. You find the last remaining queen alien of a hostile race. Do you kill it, eliminating the threat, or release it, avoiding genocide but releasing a new threat? Other choices are more political - do you side with the police service, or the gangsters, do you snoop for information for the reporter? Do you try to defend the shuttle full of diplomats, or attack the armada flagship? Two members of your team are seperated, you can only save one. Which one? They try to avoid having a "right" choice, so the player can make their choices based on the personality of their character. The choices change the outcome of the story, but don't change the gameplay itself.
It's the equivalent of asking the players if they want to support Big Bad or Morganna, and then sending them into a virtual instance to kill NPCs either way, but the virtual instance and NPCs you kill would depend on the choice you made.)

[Newworlds]

This thread is so far gone I don't even know what you guys are talking about anymore.

[arden]

@new worlds

i think they are talking about political roleplay withouyt having any sort of political system, it seems to have got a bit stupid to me

[Darren Brimhall]

Its called Monarcy: Whatever the King/Queen says is Law. It gets tiresome after a while

But, getting back to what this thread was about, I'd go with Grendle's Revenge.

You can stomp around as much as you want, kill whatever you want, and do whatever you want with the treasures you obtain without too much roleplaying...

Either that , or go to POG.com and play the quickies they have there.


Darren Brimhall

[Genesis]

So essentially... futuristic Dragon Age. Bioware never fails to satisfy.

We were discussing how the criteria listed by the OP indicates he wishes a MUD based on political/intrigue based roleplay, while simultaneously wanting the MUD not to have various elements which are typically core to a MUD of that nature, thus making the OPs request a difficult one to fill.

If you find that overly confusing or stupid in a MUD forum of all places perhaps your time would be better spent browsing YouTube comments.

I'm not really sure Monarchies have anything to do with the topic at hand, other than their potential influence on the politics of any MUD that chose such a setting to base its game in. Though if you don't wish to play a MUD with a Monarchy or Feudalist based in-character society your best bet is simply to avoid any MUD loosely based in a time era anywhere prior to the Renaissance age.

[silvarilon]

Pretty much, yeah.

[arden]

what i ment was the IDEA of political roleplay without any political sytem was stupid.
I'm sure most people reading this managed to figure that out, maybe if you can't seem to follow a simple sentence YOU should go troll somewhere else.... i hear that YOUTUBE and FACEBOOK are full of trolls, you'd feel right at home