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Old 02-15-2006, 11:38 AM   #41
Estarra
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Doesn’t something stick in your craw at the thought of others deciding how to label your MUD? Can you imagine MUD police visiting your game and deciding your world is “Mostly Stock” instead of “Mostly Original”? Or that roleplay is not “Mandatory” but only “Encouraged”? Or deciding that your category should be “Dungeons and Dragons” and not “Forgotten Realms”? How about if someone decides to describe your MUD for you? Wouldn’t you be outraged? I sure would.

And that’s what bothers me whenever this discussion about how to label MUDs comes up. People decide to make up all sorts of labels: pay to pay, pay for perks, optional pay for perks, donations accepted, donations sometimes accepted, optional donation with optional perks that may or may not have an impact on gameplay, mostly free, free but really greedy capitalist pigs in disguise, absolutely free, really really (and I mean REALLY) free, 100% super duper A++ freer-than-you-can-possibly-imagine-in-a-zillion-years FREEEE.

And after making up these labels, some of which are confusing and not obvious, there is an attitude that, “Well, you MUST accept the labels that I in my wisdom have ruled will cover all MUDs. No, I don’t care how you want to describe your MUD. You must use MY labels. And if you don’t use them, then you are a big poopie faced liar who won’t play by my rules which obviously makes you a BIG evil meanie who should be shunned!”

For those who are pushing for these labels, you have to eventually ask yourself, are you or aren’t you asking for the MUD police to enforce your label system? If so, will the MUD police also enforce other labels regarding RP, PK, genre, etc.? If not, then the labels you make up must be embraced by those whom you want to label or else they will decide not to use those labels. And if you know the games your labels are targeting dislike the labels, isn’t it a losing battle?

Just some rambling thoughts.
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Old 02-15-2006, 12:09 PM   #42
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That's pretty much exactly how the audits work on TMC, and they seem to do okay.

How would you feel if every stock mud out there listed itself as having a custom codebase with a completely original world, unrivelled gameplay, etc, etc, etc?
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Old 02-15-2006, 12:58 PM   #43
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It honestly bothers me very little if a MUD describes itself however it wants. If someone wants to say that the "mob factory" is their claim to fame original concept, more power to them!

Regarding TMC, you may be right but I only ever recall their 'audit' being they checked that the MUD exists and that it is somewhat accurate with regard to players online. I'd be very surprised if they audited things like "extended race select", "multi-classing allowed", "newbie friendly", etc. Do they really count the number of rooms in every MUD listed to audit the world size?
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:23 PM   #44
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Can you honestly say that if someone put up a purely stock DIKU MUD, copied Lusternia's feature list, and registered their stock mud on TMS using Lusternia's description verbatim (outside of replacing all occurances of Lusternia with OwnzorMUD), you wouldn't be the least bit outraged?

It's a serious question. I'd be outraged, but I'm not exactly Gandhi.
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:26 PM   #45
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Not if there were reasonable standards. For example, we list Carrion Fields as a ROM derivative, because we are, no matter how little original ROM code survives. If we advertised ourselves as "Original codebase" or "SMAUG", we'd be lying, and I don't expect the community at TMS to tolerate that.

A number of years ago, we had to list our game as "Mostly original" areas, because we had a few stock leftovers. Instead of lying about it, we took the time to cut or replace all of those areas so that we had a world where every area was written for CF. Then, after it was done, we changed out setting so that the listing stayed accurate.

If someone claims "Our MUD is the greatest!", that's clearly a subjective statement, and you're free to make that judgement for yourself. But "IRE games accept optional fees which impact gameplay" is not a subjective statement.

TMS bills itself as a "one stop MUD resource". Why not allow a browsing player to know what kind of commercial model your game uses?
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:29 PM   #46
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This doesn't really seem relevant to me.  For starters, everyone has input into how the muds are labeled on TMS, through threads like these.  Secondly, we're on the TMS site, so it's up to the TMS people how they label things.

Also, labeling a mud as "free" or "involves money" is hardly some abstract label the communists came up with.  The only reason all those labels exist that you brought up, is because muds that aren't really free keep trying to pass themselves off as free.  That makes the muds that are free for real try to make their label stand out so people understand that, hey, we're really free.  Unlike those people who advertise themselves on the surface as free to get you to come check them out but aren't.

And finally, there are no "mud police".  When it comes to your own literature, you can label yourself however you like.  If someone goes straight to your website and you write "Free!" all over it when it's really not, that's your business.  What's at stake here is how TMS lets you be labeled on their site.  I would argue that it's vital to the integrity of TMS as a whole that they label muds correctly, even if the mud staff is trying to pass themselves off as something they aren't.
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Old 02-15-2006, 02:03 PM   #47
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The way your boogeymen muds label themselves is actually an industry standard. Don't believe me? Check out the site for . So all arguments of morality aside, its not an uncommon practice.

That being said, I'm wondering if the Carrion Fields boys will be labelling their mud as "Optional payments may influence gameplay.", since it appears they're using a business model of their own. From their site:Now I would be very surprised if they could look me straight in the face and tell me that players with a carrionfields address don't have a bit more respect and influence within the game.

Now obviously the IRE and Carrion Fields business models -are- different, but its mostly a question of scale. The problem I have with this proposed change is that the terms are ambiguous, charged with preconceptions, and being created with a specific target in mind. And like Estarra astutely pointed out, its a losing battle if those targets disagree with the terms.

- Ryan

p.s. I'm glad "Traveler" chimed in with the player perspective. But can anyone point out to me a forum topic on the TMS site where a player complains that they were deceived into playing an IRE game and now feel victimized?
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Old 02-15-2006, 02:25 PM   #48
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My main point was that perhaps--just perhaps!--it might be somewhat reasonable to defer to MUD administrators on how they want to describe their MUDs. I think almost all choices that TMS and TMC offer to describe their MUDs are optional for this reason. In any event, my other point is that if “business model” labels are really necessary, perhaps allow the MUDs for whom the label is targeted to decide on what that label is. Call me crazy, but I think that’s more in the spirit of what a “community” should engender rather than forcing unwanted labels upon others.

Ok, I'll go away now....
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Old 02-15-2006, 02:41 PM   #49
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I'll look you straight in the face and tell you that players with a carrionfields.com address don't have any more respect or influence within the game.

This is because characters don't have email accounts associated with them. We don't use a registration process, and we don't collect personal information. In short, the staff can't even tell if a character has one of our email addresses.

Donations arrive with a person's real name, taken from the credit card or other method of payment, and a contact email address in case something goes wrong (and for a thank-you email if it doesn't). They aren't tied to a character in any way, and the process of donating doesn't use the MUD-- it's a PayPal link from our website.

Nice research skills, chief.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:14 PM   #50
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Similarly, "Carrion Fields is run as a hobby" is not a subjective statement, or "Carrion Fields sells things related to in-game play." is not a subjective statement. Funny how the only things you push for are selective disclosure of the arrangements around revenue generation. I've already said I'm fine with -full- disclosure, and that includes that kind of thing you guys do to generate revenue.

Why not allow a browsing player to know whether they're going to be getting an experience put together by hobbyists or professionals or whether or not the server security has been vetted by a trusted third party like Security Metrics? You're not pushing for providing "all" information. You're pushing for providing very selective information. Why is that I wonder.

Again, as long as the checkboxes accurately reflect all the existing and potential subtle variations, I'm ok with it. Your list, however, didn't, and, conveniently, as soon as it was pointed out that something in the list may apply to Carrion Fields, you changed your reasoning for that list item from "OOC influences" to "admin policy."

--matt
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:17 PM   #51
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So you're willing to look us in the face and tell us that nobody, anywhere in Carrion Fields, can EVER link one to the other? If it can -ever- happen, then you're selling an influence on gameplay, whether you want to admit it or not, and regardless of how small that influence likely is (and I'll agree that it would likely be quite small).

And it can happen. All it takes is one person mailing another person from the @carrionfields address and saying, "Hi, my character is <so and so>.

--matt
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:19 PM   #52
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I'll go one step further, because the accusation that having an "@carrionfields.com" email address changes your in-game influence is so ridiculous. It's almost as good as the prior "KaVir is spiteful and wants to hurt Matt in any way he can manage." accusation, on a topic where KaVir and Matt have been in total agreement.

Jimbob Johnson tosses us $20, because he thinks we're swell. Only thr Implementors (co-owners) receive notice. They see the donation came from "jimbob@yahoo.com", and send him a thank-you note and instructions for an @carrionfields.com account.

Now, let's look at another staff member, Aarn. Aarn, like other Immortals (everyone else on the staff except the co-owners), has no idea a donation even got made, let alone the real name or contact email of Mr. Johnson. However, Immortals do more or less all of the interaction with the players, unlike Implementors. (Players basically never see me in the game, I don't have an active religion or priests, etc.) Unlike me, Aarn has an active religion, plays an active hand in running his cabal, keeps a flock of priests and other followers around to spread his good word.

Jimbob Johnson makes a new character named Malaclypse. He doesn't have to input his real name, email, or any other personal information. He prays for Aarn's favor, hoping to become one of his empowered priests. He secretly has his fingers crossed, hoping his donation will curry some extra favor. Now:

1) Aarn has no way to tell Malaclypse is played by Jimbob.
2) Aarn has no way to tell Jimbob donated.
3) Neither Aarn nor Jimbob can speak OOC to the other. Carrion Fields is roleplay-required, and all interaction is IC. Aarn knows this, and he also knows he's potentially being watched and/or logged for quality assurance purposes.
4) Heck, Aarn can't even see what IP Jimbob is playing from. Even if he could, what good would that do him? The donation didn't come with that information.

That's the extended answer, but I wanted to be clear that the accusation in question could not be more incorrect.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:22 PM   #53
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Yeah, because after all, NOBODY ever goes OOC in a game that is labeled as roleplay-enforced and nobody ever uses extra-game methods of communication to spread information. Nobody here is naive enough to believe that nobody has ever, in the history of Carrion Fields, gone OOC in game or has communicated in-game information to other players via out-of-game methods.

Further, you sell memorials to dead characters, allowing players who play new characters to bask in the glory of the dead one. You can claim that nobody ever knows who someone's alts are, but again, nobody here is naive enough to believe it never happens.

--matt
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:26 PM   #54
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Much like your (outlandish, IMHO) example of a player bribing the owner, any such favor is against our rules. If I caught a staff member doing In-Character favors based on that sort of information, they'd be penalized or dismissed depending on the severity. It's right in the rules that every new staffer gets the day they join, and it is enforced.

This is very different from a codified system where you offer things for sale. As a parallel, you couldn't argue that a charitable organization (like the American Cancer Society or what have you) isn't a nonprofit because you could bribe their executives.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:33 PM   #55
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You're missing the point. A player doesn't have to bribe the owner. A player just has to buy something from another player for optional payments to have an impact on gameplay. There's nothing you, as the mud admin, can really do to stop that as long as anything of value is transferrable between characters.

So it never happens then, right? Or does it happen, and people are punished afterwards. I'm sure it's the latter, or you wouldn't have to speak of enforcement. If it's the latter, then it's too late: Already had an impact.

No, you couldn't not call the ACS a nonprofit, because nonprofit has a very specific meaning, as determined by the IRS, and it's got nothing to do with bribing.

You keep switching between two positions:
1. Money affects gameplay and that's what you want to categorize.
2. When it's pointed out that money can affect Carrion Fields gameplay, however trivially (and I'll agree, it's probably pretty minor), you change to basing it not on whether money can affect gameplay, but to whether the admin policy embraces that or not, which is -completely- separate from how money affects gameplay.

Blizzard, for instance, is -very- against real-money transactions between their players, and yet the single most traded virtual currency is Blizzard's gold coin. The admin policy is totally against those transactions, and yet money still has a huge effect on their gameplay.

In your case, the effect of money is potentially much smaller (nobody's going to set up a business to farm Carrion Fields items/currency. Too small a market.), but it is nevertheless not zero. Your policy is against it, but policy isn't reality. It's what you WISH reality would be. I wish we didn't have any grief players at all, but it'd be a lie to say we didn't. Admin policy may be against it, but that doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen. Did you know, in fact, that prohibited transactions between players for real money started with text MUDs, in Gemstone? It was against admin policy, and it was happening without them even realizing it for awhile. A mud admin isn't able to know if it's happening either. He may discover it, but there's no way to know it's not happening.

So, what you appear to be saying is that muds should check off whether they WISH money couldn't have an impact on gameplay, but if we're going to be checking boxes based on wishes, I have a lot of potential boxes to add.

--matt
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:35 PM   #56
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The problem here, Matt, is that you come across as very intelligent when posting on virtually every other topic.

When you post clearly outlandish or ridiculous things on this one, it comes across as theatrical, as some kind of drooling internet idiot facade you put on to try to make a point.

We know you're very much not a drooling idiot, and thus these dramatics fail to persuade.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:37 PM   #57
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They don't need to persuade you though, with all due respect. They just need to persuade Synozeer, and the only reason I bother to argue is to ensure he sees how little there is of the motives behind this that is genuine (if he's even reading this thread. I have no idea, but he could be.)

It's very clear that the people pushing for disclosure of more information aren't about "disclosure of more information." They're about selective disclosure of revenue models in such a way as to, they believe, big up themselves, as it were. I've already said I have no problem with full disclosure. It's Valg that does.

--matt
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:42 PM   #58
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The stank of desperation is starting to sting my eyes, Matt.

I understand you have a need to advocate the wallet-slap-fight games that you derive your income from.  I also understand that you want to cloak your business model from a person who is new to TMS and is searching the games.  That puts dollars in your pocket, and our honesty threatens you.

But please stop trying to pretend we all run that kind of game.  It's completely transparent that Carrion Fields uses a diametrically different business model.  You can claim such a label isn't necessary (though the fact that this has been the hottest topic on TMS for a long time suggests the opposite, as does the froth on your lips when this topic continues to thrive), but claiming we fall into the same category as Achaea is just embarrassing.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:43 PM   #59
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To quote the_logos
I am 100% confident that anyone who actually looked into the things Carrion Fields does to generate revenue would agree that they have no affect on gameplay what so ever. In particular, we allow you to purchase a very detailed character sheet once your character is dead and gone that includes immortal comments, pk statistics and more from your life. It's something the players like to see, and makes for great discussions regarding past characters. It creates no affect in the game what-so-ever.

Personally, I would be fine with adding a checkbox for "Game is run by paid professional staff." and "Game is run by volunteer staff." Would that make you happy enough to deal with detailed checkboxes on whether people pay to play your game or not?

I don't think it would. If you really were cool with "full disclosure" on the listings, you would have just proposed the other check boxes you wanted to see to go along with the "pay to play" stuff. Instead you're just grasping at whatever you can to keep from having to properly label yourself.

But please, prove me wrong. Post the list of checkboxes YOU think MUDs should use when listing on TMS, if the existing proposal isn't good enough for you.
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:44 PM   #60
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All right, then. Propose your full set of checkboxes of things a player looking for a new mud could be reasonably expected to want to know. Nothing goofy about whether a MUD has geomancers or not -- a genuinely reasonable list.

I'd be for disclosure of revenue model because I believe it's something that a player looking for a MUD would reasonably like to know, preferring one or the other. I also believe there are a lot of other things a player would want to know that aren't currently searchable on TMS. I would personally be for the implementation of any reasonable set of additions.

It's in the best interest of the staff of any MUD that players are able to find it that would be inclined to like it and want to play it. A lot of criteria can make this easier, of which revenue model is but one.
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