Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Tavern of the Blue Hand
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-08-2005, 10:28 PM   #61
Iluvatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 142
Iluvatar is on a distinguished road
I've never believed in a "banned forever" policy and after the years that've passed, I applaud Synozeer for letting them back in. However, there's no doubt from the "warm" reception that honor, morality and respect for the community at large are still our principles. Based on that, I highly recommend Synozeer reconsider his action before every comment about or by Medievia becomes a long flame war.

I don't begrudge them their success or the money they rake in and I know it's taken many hours of work from dedicated builders and coders to expand what they started with. What I do take offense at is profitting from other people's labors without credit nor compensation AND blatantly throwing it in the faces of the free mudding community with paid for advertisements and votes (tax deductible business expenses). Obviously I'm not alone in that belief.

Oh, and as for the_logos? Well, I guess the thieves aren't so much competition for IRE now so why should he hold grudges. He might even share a few snippets with them to advertise (with suitable credit displayed for the snippets of course). Hmm, Ma Bell of muddom...interesting.
Iluvatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 10:32 PM   #62
mudnutx
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20
mudnutx is on a distinguished road
While I hate Medievia as much as the next person, I feel some responsibilty to pose the question:

If noone here has seen their medievia 5 [the latest version of their MUD] code, are the arguments against them, especially the ones citing earlier code versions, valid?

I think that Kavir needs to give some sort of answer to that question to have a strong case for accusing them of licence violations.

I am just trying to imagine what soleil et al might say if they attempted to conjure up any remotely intelligent defence of their MUD rather than what are, in essence, "might is right" arguments of saying that if one can get away with anything immoral or illegal that makes it right.

Soleil's defence of the current modified code because it has 500'000 plus lines of c++ code compared to the tiny merc codebase is laughable. That's like saying that I can go to a copyrighted song and use their loop without paying royalties or asking permission. If I took such liberties with one second of any copyrighted song loop lawyers would eat me alive faster than hungry pirahnas in the Amazon.
mudnutx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 10:43 PM   #63
Iluvatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 142
Iluvatar is on a distinguished road
That's correct, except that the in this case, the creators live in Scandinavia and don't make profit off their work for lawyer fees.  That makes it a bit tough for them to sue or otherwise legally pursue, so they quit supporting us according to KaVir. Quite a few other coders have joined the "no freebie" bandwagon also.
Iluvatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 04:20 AM   #64
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Actually "this crap" was already around back when Vryce was still with Sultress, so I don't see why you're getting so surprised about it now. Nobody (except the_logos apparently) likes someone who steals from their community, particularly when they then boast about how there's nothing anyone can do about it.

It's like a criminal who's finally allowed to return to the community they were inprisoned for harming, boasting about their crime, then getting surprised when they're not welcomed back with open arms.

I mean honestly, what sort of response did you expect?

Yet I think those prospective players at least deserve to know the truth about the mud they're about to play.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 04:27 AM   #65
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Well obviously it's built on the same codebase - so I'm assuming your argument is "Is it possible that they've changed enough that they're no longer a derivative?".



Piecewise Reimplementation

Many people have reimplemented computer programs by rewriting them to replace the source code with code of their own writing. There is no reason to believe that this would not be a copyright infringement, particularly if the reimplementer had access to the source code of the original program, even if none of the original source code remains.

When the first segment of code is rewritten, the new code will be an infringing work if it is substantially similar to the original code, or may be an infringing derivative work if it is a reimplementation in a different programming language. That reimplemented first segment is combined with the remaining parts of the original program to form an intermediate version. Subsequent modifications produce another work. So when you have completed the piecewise reimplementation, you have a set of works, each of whose creation infringes the exclusive rights of the owner of the copyright of the original program.

As an analogy, consider the translation of a novel to a different language, something that would clearly be a derivative work. It makes little difference that none of the original words remain, or that the translation was done a little at a time. The resulting translation is still an infringing derivative work.

Even if you completely replace the program with new code, nonliteral elements also protected by the original program’s copyright are likely to remain and infringe – elements like the overall program structure or architecture and data structures that are not dictated by external or efficiency considerations. Although there is no case law on this point, it would seem that the only way to break the chain of infringing works is by some extraordinary act, such as a clean room implementation.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 10:58 AM   #66
Ashon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 75
Ashon is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ashon Send a message via AIM to Ashon Send a message via MSN to Ashon Send a message via Yahoo to Ashon
Ashon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 11:03 AM   #67
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
And I think it's that sort of attitude that really distinguishes the truly 'professional' muds from the second-hand-car-salesman-"professional" ones.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 11:46 AM   #68
Lanthum
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 138
Lanthum is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Lanthum
I know this response is a DAY after - on a thread with over 60 responses, but this is so stupid I have to respond ...

Because it's wrong.  Besides, their inactivity does not necessarily equate to lack of caring.  They might have just accepted that doing anything is reasonably out of the question.

Because it's wrong!  Anyways, like THAT matters to the rest of us!

Because it's wrong!   Again, like THAT matters.  Decisions based on money don't make them right!

BECAUSE ITS WRONG!!!!  Something that you OBVIOUSLY cannot grasp.  To the people who post on these threads about your stealing - right and wrong (on this particular issue at least) must matter to them.


Do you REALLY not understand this?


It doesn't matter what YOU consider your self.  It matters what the creators and the rest of the world consider you.  As far as I understand derivative - you are still it.  Until you start with a clean file with nothing in it - and start coding from there - you are a derivative.

Your feelings don't change the facts.
Lanthum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 12:04 PM   #69
the_logos
Legend
 
the_logos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,305
the_logos will become famous soon enough
Skotos?! Are you serious? When I last talked to Christopher Allen (their CEO), all 7 of their games had less players COMBINED than just one of ours. They spent millions of dollars on development and ended up with...basically nothing. Skotos is the absolute last company any developer with commercial ambitions should look to as an example and Christopher is an honest enough guy that he'd probably tell you the same thing, privately at least.

--matt
the_logos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 01:55 PM   #70
Ashon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 75
Ashon is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ashon Send a message via AIM to Ashon Send a message via MSN to Ashon Send a message via Yahoo to Ashon
Have you ever heard of the concept of Ethical Business Practices? Probably not.

Skotos has a bunch of flaws. They are more MUSH'es then they are traditional MUD's. Their advertising was not properly executed, and from what I remember about the game itself, was bit cumbersome to play.

But they continue to walk the moral high-ground. No-one has ever accused them of stealing code, they have contributed numerous articles to the community, and numerous ideas. They don't hide behind falsehoods of the games being free to play. They don't ride into the forums, and ruthlessly try to get their mud onto the topmudlist (are they even in the listings?) they don't have admins writing 'player reviews'.

A flawed Business Model, is a completely different issue then having an ethically deficient Business Model.
Ashon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 02:37 PM   #71
the_logos
Legend
 
the_logos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,305
the_logos will become famous soon enough
the_logos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 03:33 PM   #72
Valg
Senior Member
 
Valg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 643
Valg will become famous soon enough
A good analysis of why pay-for-perks games are de facto not "free", from Dmitri Williams, posting on TerraNova (Link: ) about a Sony service to allow people to buy and sell virtual objects for their games:

Even if you don't care about the intellectual property theft perpetrated by Medievia, Dmitri's reasons should be sufficient to convince you to avoid the "pay-for-perks" trap, especially when the community offers any number of fair (free or flat subscription) outlets for competitive play.
Valg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 03:34 PM   #73
Ashon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 75
Ashon is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ashon Send a message via AIM to Ashon Send a message via MSN to Ashon Send a message via Yahoo to Ashon
So, if you are so interested in the bigger picture, why come across as a prick on the boards? I myself believe that is why most people get into with you.

If your so interested in being respected by any community as obviously you are trying to do on the bigger picture, you shouldn't trash talk, inflame, and generally **** off the random forum posters. It was years ago when MUD-DEV was still rather active and talk about design was tossed around a lot more '99? '00? That people respected you, and your ideas.

It's easy to have a business model based on deceit, lies, and mis-information then it is to take an ethical high-road. Look at all spammers that abound, the MLM scams, the Enrons. It's harder to standup and and be ethical.

If money and a nice car is all it takes for business people to be able to sleep well at night, then so be it. But for most people, I suspect that it's not enough.

I'm sure, Matt, that if you took some of the thought that you have put into your muds, and you applied it to your actions in the Micro-community, you'll find that you can find just as good of an advertising route, as getting flamed constantly.
Ashon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 04:19 PM   #74
Ilkidarios
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Name: Lamont
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Posts: 436
Ilkidarios is on a distinguished road
Oh Jesus, it's bad enough that Logos is always starting flame wars, but why does everyone just do exactly what he intends by flaming in threads like these? I always say this, but it still holds true: everyone is just waiting for a giant flamewar. It's as if "Logos" knows the right strings to pull just to make everyone jump up and start flaming. Why does everyone come to his beck and call? Every single one of these is just a publicity stunt or him being a fag like he was with the "Anti-America" thing a while back. If a thread like this is made, let Logos say what he wants and don't respond. Otherwise it's like your on a God damned leash.
Ilkidarios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 04:41 PM   #75
the_logos
Legend
 
the_logos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,305
the_logos will become famous soon enough
These boards aren't part of the bigger picture. Certain community members ensure that by starting flame wars over things as simple as a welcome message to another MUD. That sort of community member ensures this kind of board will never be relevant to the bigger picture. Heh, imagine if E3 or the IGDA banned companies from participation anytime people made unproven accusations about another company. (Which is all they are until they're found guilty by a judicial authority: accusations by highly biased parties.) It's laughable.

A large part of the difference of opinion, to be fair, is that MUDs are part of the games industry to me, while they're a hobby to you. That makes for a very different set of starting assumptions. For instance, one forum member once attacked me for pointing out that quantifying the results of marketing are a crucial stage in the process. What can I even say to that? There's just no grounds for serious discussion if nonsense like that is actually taken seriously and unfortunately, it is taken seriously here. *shrug*

Anyway, it doesn't matter what a handful of people on Topmudsites think of me or Iron Realms. We've got hundreds of players from Topmudsites in our database now and dozens of them online right now. I'm a lot more concerned about the TMS users who love our games than a small group of naysayers, because you'll always get naysayers. Naysayers just tend to be the loudmouthed fringe. It's interesting to note that nearly all the regular attackers happen to be mud admins, not players. Draw your own conclusions. I do!

Listen, this is just pointless. We're going to do what we're going to do, and that's that. You may continue to complain about us all you want, but it's just irrelevant and although you were reasonably polite (which is why I responded), this is wasting my time.

Edit: Salient example in the post above this one. Note the maturity level in calling me a 'fag.' Nothing like homophobic backwater types.

--matt
the_logos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 05:07 PM   #76
Samson
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Socialist States of America
Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org
Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting
Posts: 249
Samson is on a distinguished road
The only difference here is that the accusations against Medievia have been proven, in more ways than I care to count. Mike's wife even admitted it plainly right here in this very forum, in this very thread. This is why people are on about you, you're defending an openly admitted thief who goes so far as to proclaim herself PROUD of her criminal gains.
Samson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 05:07 PM   #77
Ashon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 75
Ashon is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ashon Send a message via AIM to Ashon Send a message via MSN to Ashon Send a message via Yahoo to Ashon
If the forums aren't part of the bigger picture, then why are you involved in them as much as you are?  If they don't fit into the picture, shouldn't your time and energy be spent on something that does fit into the bigger picture?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  In the business that I'm starting, I've identified the pieces that are needed to be successful.  And the other parts are not part of the big picture, so I don't waste my energy on it.  Period.  It doesn't make me successful.  So either, being a prick on the boards to drum up business is part of the big picture, or you are wasting your time on the boards, and just trying to vent frustration or anger on the forum members.

So if MUDs are part of the games industry, and even though we are mostly hobbyist, wouldn't it be best to represent yourself, and your company in a professional manner?  It seems logical to me.  I will assume that when you go to E3 that you aren't sprouting about how great medieva is.

My point about these naysayers, is that they woudldn't be naysayers if you acted a) Professional, b) showed some ethical behavior on the boards, and c) didn't lord it over us hobbyist, that you are making money off of our hobby, as if you are better then us, just because you profit from it, and we refuse to.

*EDIT* Paragraph about defending Med, that Samson put in much fewer words then me.

I agree, that blame falls on both sides of the river.  And I'm just as disgusted by the people who attack you.  At some point someone has to take the higher ground.  It just seems nonsensical to me, that the person who can benefit the most from taking the higher ground, refuses to.  Ilkidarios comment is way of base, but all he can lose is respect of other forum readers, you however have more things to lose.
Ashon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 05:55 PM   #78
Ilkidarios
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Name: Lamont
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Posts: 436
Ilkidarios is on a distinguished road
Oh, did I say fag? I meant homosexual. I believe the proper term for the whole disrespecting soldiers nonsense was "Logos was being a homosexual." Now that that is all cleared up, I'd like to say that I personally don't care about Medievia. It's just one MUD in a sea of thousands. Nothing makes it stand out. But what really gets my goat is that everyone just talks about these popular MUDs as if the little guy is always better, when really your crap is no better than theirs, if not worse. Work on cleaning out your own pile of garbage before you badmouth somebody else's. Who CARES if Medievia stole a codebase. Just work on bettering your own MUD and hopefully bad memories like Medievia will go down the drain and we will have new and better MUDs. Everybody wins!
Ilkidarios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2005, 05:16 PM   #79
remcon737
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3
remcon737 is on a distinguished road
Yea yea this post is old, but well today is the first time I read it.

Ok, so let me see if I have this correct.
Medievia thinks it's ok to take someone elses work and use it if they make all kinds of changes to it and rewrite it.
So when someone finaly comes along and takes Medievia's code and converts it to another language and either removes alot of stuff or adds alot more to it they have the right to claim it as their own. I can't wait for that day to come when someone does Medievia the way they did others.
As for Medievia having a large player base, that is only because it already has a large player base. I still manage to meet new people that use to play Medievia at one time or another and quit playing there once they found out about everything. So while they do have a large player base for now, at some point and time it will decrease alot and by its own doing.


I'm not asking for a flame so lets not bother, I did have to state my opinion on it all though just so it's stated.
remcon737 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2005, 06:19 PM   #80
WarHound
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Locked in a place where no one goes...
Home MUD: Armageddon.org
Posts: 219
WarHound is on a distinguished road
Why in the name of all that is good and pure in the world would you choose to dredge up THIS ****ing thread?

*shakes head* It's all been said, said again, argued, flamed over, whined and cried about, and finally, thankfully, mercifully forgotten... Until now. Bleh.

-WP
WarHound is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Welcome, Medievia - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Medievia V Soleil Advertising for Players 8 07-03-2006 12:12 PM
medievia gone? nass Tavern of the Blue Hand 36 01-08-2006 09:59 PM
New Changes to Medievia! Soleil Advertising for Players 4 10-09-2005 12:44 PM
Medievia V is here! Soleil Advertising for Players 0 06-28-2005 04:29 PM
Medievia Anzerion Advertising for Players 60 05-12-2005 08:10 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2022