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Old 09-23-2002, 06:53 PM   #101
the_logos
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Once again, I fail to understand why you're equating votes with quality. I don't do it, anywhere, and I'm not sure where you think you saw it being done by me, or by anyone else in the Achaean administration.

Clearly Simutronics could send more traffic to the list if they offered an incentive to vote. Would that change their quality (or, if you don't like their games, lack thereof) one bit? Of course not.

It seems to me that for many posters this is just a childish ego issue, and a refusal or inability to recognize the rankings list for what it is: A variation on banner exchanges.

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 06:55 PM   #102
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None of which, of course, gives you any clue as to whether or not the quote is real. It is, and Gamespy has no problem with us using it.

I repeat: You have no idea what you're talking about.

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 06:59 PM   #103
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Did I mention that we are engaged in white slavery, anti-trust violations, and puppy-kicking as well? It'd probably be good if we were taken to task for that. I'm sure some of you out there have a few hundred posts to write slamming us for it. Please?

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 06:59 PM   #104
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I'm sorry to hear you say we're not a part of the community.  Personally, I have always felt distinctly unwelcome ... as if our success somehow made us dirty.

Which is sad, because I feel that we're all very much alike.  We all want to design entertaining and fun worlds for many people to enjoy.  

There isn't a single GM on my staff that doesn't do what they do because they love the game.  I know that I could certainly make more money doing other things with my time ... but I love gaming.  Specifically, I love text-based gaming.  I don't think that anything else in the world can come close to the all-consuming experience available in a MUD game.

I have to assume that everyone else who builds MUDs feels the same.  So how am I not a member of this community?

Can't we all appreciate the art of our work together?

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Old 09-23-2002, 07:13 PM   #105
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If you weren't so busy trying to be a smart-ass, you have noticed that I prefaced my original statement by saying that if the quote did not come from its claimed source that you may find yourself on the end of a lawsuit. This is an entirely true statement and you may respond to it accordingly. However, your crude and dismissive statements do nothing to enhance your already deteriorating reputation.

Moreover, I have come across information that the quote in question was merely a posting on a board and that it was never authored by any member of the staff or editorial board. Attributing the quote to them is, at best, deceitful and misleading and, at worst, an outright lie.

What a wonderful reputation you are building for yourself!
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Old 09-23-2002, 07:58 PM   #106
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I am new to the list, and only found out about it, because of people posting on the boards in DragonRealms. Back when DragonRealms was on AOL, I played multiple muds through the AOL links, because they were all located in 1 place so it didn't cost me 1000s of hours trying to find a new one to try.

So what if 1 mud is p2p and 1 is free, why should it matter, I don't see how it would detract from this community, (granted I haven't been here but 8 hours or so) but, I feel that everyone who plays a mud are part of the mudding community, having input from people who play all kinds of muds, can only help the community in general. To shutout a whole section of the community simply because thier community is willing to pay in order to play a game they enjoy playing, would IMHO damage this list more than having them on here. Certainly the integrity of the list would need to be questioned if it claims to be the topmudsite listing(as url states), but has a condition on what muds can actually be in that list.

While it could be true that none of the p2p developers care about the mudding community,(which I don't believe) and only want to make large sums of money, that doesn't mean that those people playing those games don't care about the community. All shutting people out does, is deny them of the chance of experience other muds with relative ease. I have visited a few different muds since I got linked to this page, and if anyone else who came from DR is like me, it can only benefit the rest of the muds on here, to have another mud linking to this list, to bring their players in here and allow them the chance to try something new.

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Old 09-23-2002, 08:00 PM   #107
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As for the #1 on the list etc... I admit I did try Achaea simply because it was above DR on the list. I won't go into my likes and dislikes of the game. While I don't care for the way they are getting their votes, it is getting them what they want, attention. So if this list wants a more representative view of what muds are so good that their players want to vote for it, than perhaps the actual voting needs to be a little more difficult.

Require an actual account for 1. It is simply too easy for someone to skew the results simply by voting with a couple clicks of a mouse. And it also makes it really easy for games to offer incentives to their players for voting, since it requires little effort from the players. If they were forced to fill out an extensive list just to be able to vote, and log in everytime that might serve as a deturrent from that sort of practice.

Additionally adding a listing for players over 100 perhaps in 100 player intervals, and then using percentages rather than sheer numbers would make the listing more representative of player views rather than population sizes. In addition to allowing only 1 vote per account per day, at the maximum.

Unfortunatly this would probably detract from this sites profitability, and from the hits that everyone enjoys due to the large number of people voting over and over to make their mud win.

Kore
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Old 09-23-2002, 08:11 PM   #108
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My man, what you think of me is entirely irrelevant. Success is the universal balm. You carry right on with your mean-spirited attacks. It only gets us more business.

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 08:24 PM   #109
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You are truly amazing. Just because you give yourself such an arrogant name does not bestow upon you the ethos of infallibility.

My original statement was to let you know that you are susceptible to a possible civil lawsuit. You responded by telling me, twice, that I had no idea what I was talking about. Your definition of what is mean-spirited is quite different than mine.

You also serve as a shining example of my previous statement that p2p muds rarely care about the community, and are merely only concerned about their own success. In fact, you explicitly stated as much.
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Old 09-23-2002, 08:32 PM   #110
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The childish rage many people show towards pay-to-play MUDs has died down over time ("It's so unfair to have to pay for something! I deserve it for free! You must be evil!" (standard misspellings and poor grammar not included)), but there's still definitely some of that there.

Really though, who cares? There's no such thing as "The MUD community" in any meaningful way. There are a few forums, frequented by far less than 1/2% of people playing MUDs, that are not at all representative of MUDers generally, no matter how much some participants would like to believe they are.

Despite that, it still used to bother me some, but then I realized, "Hey, you know what? Screw them. Our games rock. We are way more fastidious about proper in-game management than 99% of free MUDs, we have a large playerbase who loves us, we donate to charity, and we take some of our dedicated volunteers on vacations they could not otherwise afford. If anyone has a problem with any of that, that person is unlikely to be someone whose opinion is worth anything to me."

I'm not at all ashamed of being financially successful. Everytime a player spends money on us, it makes me proud that they love our world enough to do that, and when we get the occasional player that spends in the thousands, I just marvel that we've created something so compelling that someone would pay that much for it, despite thousands of MUDs they could be playing for free.

Rock on, Melissa.

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 08:37 PM   #111
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Old 09-23-2002, 08:42 PM   #112
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That's ridiculous. I'm wearing a Ring of Infallibility as we speak. (My handle is just my suffix in Achaea: Sarapis, the Logos.)

As for communities, there's no such thing as the mud community. There are communities built around individual sites and individual games, but none of these communities have any claim at all to representing MUDers generally.

I would like to see text games generally succeed, because a rising tide raises all ships, but I find it difficult to care about a non-existent community. The mere existence of a number of people independently engaged in an activity does not make a community in any meaningful way. It's akin to claiming that there is a general "computer-using community" just because a relative handful of computer users participate in some forums on using computers.

--matt
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:03 PM   #113
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While it might be true that those posting on this forum do not properly represent all of those who play muds. That does not mean that there is not a mudding community. The very definition of a community is a group of people who share a common interest, so by definition there is indeed a mudding community. In addition, that does not mean that those posting on this forum are not also a community.

Just as those who live in a community, try to get rid of the bad seeds who go against the norms of said community, this community here is policing its self and get rid of those who generally detract from the community.

While this communities views might not reflect the views of the mudding community, it is the community that everyone who posts here is a part of.

Going against the good of the community, simply for personal gain, when most the community is against it, and find it potentially damaging to the community, when one has knowledge of that damage, potentially makes one a criminal in that community.

Continuing to act like a criminal when a large portion of the community that you are a part of speaks out against you, not only speaks volumes about your personal characters, it also puts the product that you are represting in a bad light.
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:06 PM   #114
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Again, your arrogance astounds me. In response to the accusations that your actions disharmonize the community, you merely claim there is no community so as to give yourself immunity from any responsibility of your actions. If you are as arrogant, condescending, and dismissive to your players as you are to the boards, then I feel sorry for them. If not, then I'll just assume you only consider it a community if people pay to talk to each other.

I've been thinking about your mean-spirited comment. I just thought I would let you know that if I were truly mean-spirited, I would have merely reported you to the Federal Trade Commission or your state regulatory body alleging violations of the consumer fraud acts. Which, by the way, anyone on this board could do.
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:08 PM   #115
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Thank you for your response. Actually, as evident by my late replies to this current thread, prior to coming to this site I was unaware of the vast multitude of games now out there.

Apparently this site is accomplishing its intended purpose as I have been actively checking out other games. <g>
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:26 PM   #116
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:whistles at Koreberg:

Couldn't have said it better.  Heck I am a happy camper at the moment been browsing this site and other games for days.

So, it also proves the claim that any publicity, positive or negative, is publicity period.

I also took slight offense at that thought that we who play DR as 'pay to players' weren't part of 'this' community. I am a gamer.  I love to play RPG's of all sorts, including video games. I particularly enjoy text based multiplayer games.  Sounds like I'm a member to me... <g>
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:34 PM   #117
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Maybe my generalization was a bit unfair. Yet, at the same, people such as the_logos give p2p'ers a bad name. Maybe you should, as Koreberg suggested, engage in some self-policing, as he is single-handedly continuing to give you all a bad name.
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:35 PM   #118
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The people railing against Achaea have just given me a severe case of naseau. Your whining is not only transparent, but it's unsettling, as it casts SERIOUS doubt on the intelligence of the "MUD Community" you claim to represent.

If it's not against the rules, shut the hell up. If you think it does violate a rule, or you think it should, complain to the topmudsites administrator. Don't bring your feeble whining to a message board as some lameass topic entitled "Achaea's latest attempt to claim #1" - guess what? They ARE #1, at least at the time of this post.
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:38 PM   #119
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Old 09-23-2002, 10:19 PM   #120
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I find it odd that every thread Sarapis aka The Logos aka Matt Mihaly replies to almost instantly stops the topic, and spawns a new one: how many inane and disagreeable things did he say in his reply.

Between calling everything stupid (his main arguement in most discussions), saying that he's successful, and thus we should all listen to him, repeatedly quoting rules and regulations that he is not breaking while skirting the issue that has little or nothing to do with rules, and in most cases arguing like a two year old with his mother about having dessert instead of supper.

Well, instead of trying to get us back on track, again, I guess I'm going to join in, see if maybe that gets us back, though I highly doubt it. In any event, its still fun counting up all the little inanities:

"there's no such thing as the mud community."

Anyone in the mudding community knows that there is.  The fact that numerous people have mentioned it during there posts only backs this up.  The fact that you don't know about it because you are not a part of it, doesn't make this line any more valid.

"If anyone has a problem with any of that, that person is unlikely to be someone whose opinion is worth anything to me."

If our opinions don't matter, then stop responding.  Adults know to ignore a two year old, because they will stop once they get bored, only other two year olds get upset and retaliate claiming it doesn't bother them.

"My man, what you think of me is entirely irrelevant. Success is the universal balm. You carry right on with your mean-spirited attacks. It only gets us more business."

Nearly the same thing, if you don't care, shut up.  Also, this seems to be a reacurring theme in many of your posts, be they here or on other sites and forums: I'm a success, so I'm better than you, and thus you should listen to me.  I will admit, Achaea is a success, but in my opinion, you are not.

"Did I mention that we are engaged in white slavery, anti-trust violations, and puppy-kicking as well? It'd probably be good if we were taken to task for that. I'm sure some of you out there have a few hundred posts to write slamming us for it. Please?"

Don't post stupid inane things like this.  We don't care a wit that you can be sarcastic, and it has no bearing.  If your upset, tell us your upset, don't throw a tantrum.

"I repeat: You have no idea what you're talking about."

Another common phrase.  I really don't think he even reads the posts, someone just tells them they're saying bad things about your game, and he just picks a bunch of phrases from a hat.

"Once again, I fail to understand why you're equating votes with quality. I don't do it, anywhere, and I'm not sure where you think you saw it being done by me, or by anyone else in the Achaean administration."

What the hell are you talking about?? I quote: "Voted the #1 MUD on Earth." This is from MudConnector.com's ads.  This specifically says you are the #1 mud.  Now, most of us know you don't have the largest player base (by far), you probably don't have the most profitable MUD either, and I happen to know for a fact that a good deal of your player base is only there because there friends are, most of them hate Achaea and expect it to be run into the ground.

"You have no idea what you're talking about."

Oh look, there it is again.

"Quality is subjective, and no doubt most of our players think Achaea is a far better game, and most of DR and Gemstone's players think those games are far better games."

I doubt that highly.  Most of your players think you have a good playerbase.  End of thought.

"Are you accusing us of lying, cheating, and stealing? I really hope not. "

Lying? YES, Cheating? YES.  Read the damn posts, I thought it was quite obvious what we were accusing you off.  As for stealing, no, but it wouldn't suprise me in the least.

"Dare, challenge, whatever. You used the words, "I dare you" but you could replace them with "I challenge you""

I've never heard "I dare you to a duel."  Think before you speak would you?  The only people I hear say dare are preteens playing truth or dare, or perhaps two year olds daring each other to go draw on the walls.

"Well, you might be seriously daring me, but I grew out of that years ago, my friend."

I don't think you have.

"My responsibility is to my investors and partners, my players, and my employees, in that order."

You forgot one:  Your customers.  Which, I might add, he holds higher than any other group put together.  Those who have played Achaea know that credits are the almighty ruling system.  If you have bought credits (the more, the better) You can get away with anything, and everything.  Now, it is true that he has made some token punishments of those who have bought credits, but I'm sure it was not before he found out they were never going to buy again.

"I also notice your quote doesn't say, "World leader in text-based multplayer gaming." It says, "leader in online games" which is blatantly false."

How can you even bring this up?!? You yourself claim that you are the best MUD out there, which has already earned you the seat of the "mudding communities" village idiot.  But now you say noone else has to right to make as blatantly false lies?  *You hear a whisper from the judges table, "Can we get a dictionary definition of hypocracy?"*

"And as for losing players to us, you might ask some of your ex-GMs who play Achaea now."

Who the hell cares.  I'm sure many of your players have gone and played there.  The fact that later on you can't even back up this quote makes it even more laughable.  For that matter, I have many of your players that say my MUD (only in alpha) is already better than Achaea.

"You claim people wouldn't vote as much if we didn't reward them."

Not claim, telling you.  Its quite obvious from recent history.  Week 1, Achaea is #1000, week 2, Achaea bribes its players, its #1.  Its not that hard to follow the line of thought here Sherlock.

"If we're engaged in bribery, then this entire site is, and every MUD listed on it is participating in bribing topmudsites to give them exposure."

No comment, just wanted to add another inane quote.

"And you know, I'm a little sick of the childish insults I'm seeing from you guys."

This is amazing, cause its pretty much exactly what he does in response.  Anyone find the irony?  Free xp on my game if you do (You also have to vote for us.) P.S. We don't have xp in yet.

"Is it tacky? Maybe, but I really don't care. I read the topmudsites rules, and if any of you can point out which rule we're breaking, I'd be gratified. Otherwise, you're just wasting your breath as I'm only interested in the rules, not your opinion on what the rules should be."

Here we have a textbook example of an evil-lawful character.  One who has little care of good will for the community/mankind, only in furthuring his own little kingdom.  But, on the flip side, he wants everyone to believe he is doing it for the good of the community (which if you read above, he doesn't believe exists)/mankind.  Its true he didn't break any rule, but he cares little for what the rules are really there for: to promote a healthy, friendly and ETHICALLY SOUND base for competition between MUDs.

In any event, I hope you all found this entertaining, and enlightening.  As for you Matt, please, if your going to attempt to be part of the "mudding community" that you don't believe exists, bring some more wit, and preferably an adult to proofread your posts and stop you from saying the things you should know by now not to.  Cause right now, you don't seem to have a very high standing in it.  Plus the constant reminder that you think your better than you are (IE, your #1 ads all over the place) are just plain annoying.

P.S. If anyone wants to copy this to the MUD Humour board, be my guest.
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