Tavern of the Blue Hand

Valg · 06-19-2005, 03:37 PM

Two possibilities:

1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it. He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism.

In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty? (And cowardly, to boot.) What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code?

2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar.

If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent? Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist?

He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law. Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind. If so, shouldn't he post it?

the_logos · 06-19-2005, 06:14 PM

Ilkidarios · 06-19-2005, 08:07 PM

Maybe the reason Vryce doesn't answer is because he doesn't feel like it. What do you want him to say? I for one am glad he doesn't say anything, I couldn't care less. At least we won't end up with a Derek Smart on our hands. And frankly, I don't think he's going to be comin out here to say something anytime soon. Him admitting he stole codebase would be like an idiot admitting he was stupid, it just doesn't happen. Who's the last murderer you know who plead guilty? (No, I'm not comparing Vryce to an idiot or a murderer)

Daedroth · 06-19-2005, 11:18 PM

prof1515 · 06-20-2005, 02:29 AM

Easy solution:

If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community. If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves.

There. Enough said.

Take care,

Jason

Sinuhe · 06-20-2005, 10:21 AM

the_logos June 19 2005,19:14
It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames.

And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post.
Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?

the_logos · 06-20-2005, 12:39 PM

Or, you could just stop flaming them. *gasp*

Why post here asking that? Why not just mail Kyndig or post on Mudmagic asking him?

--matt

the_logos · 06-20-2005, 12:43 PM

Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft. Of course, I'd also never defend stealing any sort of IP, and there's plenty of that going on in many MUDs on TMS. On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care?

Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere and I'm wondering who it is actually directed to. I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it. People could lose their jobs, be unable to pay their mortgages, etc. If, on the other hand, I suffered only mild ego harm, like the DIKU authors did, then I doubt I'd care very much....which is pretty much the stance the DIKU authors seem to have taken, since they dropped the issue years ago.

--matt

prof1515 · 06-20-2005, 08:43 PM

Chalk it up to being sick of seeing this topic on the forums featuring rationalizations to defend unethical and immoral acts.

Do you approve of Medievia's actions? Yes or no. Same goes for the others that made up excuses as to why Medievia shouldn't be held accountable by whatever means possible for their act of theft.

Anyone that doesn't believe that taking something that isn't yours and claiming it as your own when you are aware of to whom ownership belongs as well as their will regarding it. We all know who created the DIKU code and we know their conditions for its use. That known, Medievia chose to steal. Making excuses for people who deliberately committed an immoral act leaves a person guilty of approving of such an act.

Harm is harm, and committing an act against another when you know they do not approve of that act is just as immoral regardless of the degree of harm it causes. To put it only in economic terms just shows that you approve of theft except under specific conditions. That's the same as saying you oppose murder but approve of attempted murder as long as it fails and no injury occured.

So, back to my question: do you approve of what Medievia did? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Take care,

Jason

Ilkidarios · 06-21-2005, 07:19 PM

I'll answer your question myself: No I don't approve of it, but I just don't care anymore. There's nothing I can do about it. I just want to stop talking about Medievia. All these mindless drones who say "M3DI3VIA DIDN'T ST3AL CODE BECAUSE I'M IGN0R4NT!!!1R0FLMAOLOO00OLLLLLLLLL!!!11" are drawn to discussions like this. Perhaps, like a moth and a lamp, if you turn off the lamp the moth goes wherever it was going. So maybe if we stopped talking about Medievia, the mindless drones will go away. After all, if a kid with ADD gets bored, he will go run with scissors or something.

Daedroth · 06-21-2005, 07:31 PM

So thats how you get rid of ADD kids....

viggs · 06-22-2005, 09:29 PM

Wow, It took me parts of three days to read all the posts on this subject.
Let me start out by saying I am nobody, I do not know law. or licensing or spelling or proper ways to construct a post.
I am a mudder. Ive mudded for atleast 7yrs now. I do not own or IMP or IMM any mud past or present . I am a player.
Let me say first of all ive never played Medival or whatever , I wouldnt pay to play. I play a mud that had its code stolen is as close As I can get to knowing anything about any of this.
The only reason I even came here was to vote for the mud that I play (shameless plug) Abandoned Realms.
Then I started read all of this. Here are my insignificat comments
I stopped reading Logos posts about half way thru because I found him very hard to read without wanting to reach thru my moniter and slap the smirk off his face.
As soon as I read that Soilie or whatever was married to Vyrce I stopped reading hers as well. When someone as full of S*** as her doenst know or want to say what her Husband and BOSS is or is not doing ,.In my world thats a liar.
If Its obvious to me that Medivial is stolen . then its stolen, Walks like a duck Quacks like a duck etc etc.
I do wonder why its allowed to advertise here and not just about any other voting sites though. Easy enough to guess . Money.
Why wouldnt they just say Ok Fine we all know its Diku put and put the credits back. Once again ., Money ,
Lastly i would like to appoligize for all my spelling ,grammer and strutual errors of this post and thank anyone that got this far into my post.

Did I mention Abandoned Realms is the most balanced RP/PK mud ive ever played? *wink* Thanks again

Ilkidarios · 06-22-2005, 09:42 PM

We all feel like that, but he's really not that bad if you talk to him on the forum about non-mud related stuff.

Ilkidarios · 06-22-2005, 09:48 PM

I think they could, and have, this train is already so derailed it has crashed into a giant nuclear power plant. Right now we're at the point where we are fighting a post-apocalyptic warlord for the last source of fuel in a bombed out desert wasteland.

Ashon · 06-23-2005, 01:51 PM

This sounded like the management team of Medievia would respond to an email, about the questions that we have had. As of yet, more then what 15 days? There has been no reply?

Any Advice Soliel, on how to get a reply from Vyrce, about our questions?

Soleil · 06-23-2005, 02:48 PM

Seems to me that if he didn't respond by now, he's not going to respond. As I think I mentioned before, he doesn't feel he needs to answer to the posters here at this forum. Sorry to disappoint you.

I think the_logos summed it up rather nicely:

So, shrug, looks like you are going to have to do with no answers this time around.

prof1515 · 06-23-2005, 03:23 PM

So in addition to being a thief, Vryce is a coward too.

I notice that the_logos, Threshold, et al have yet to respond with a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether or not they agree with Medievia's unethical behavior. I'll make it even easier for them then. If you don't agree, simply say "No." If you do agree and condone theft and lies, simply remain silent as you already have and we'll all get the point and toss cowardice onto the list.

I can't help but wonder though. Perhaps those that have defended Medievia have also abused the DIKU license too. If they lack the integrity to understand or admit that Medievia's behavior was wrong, what's to say they have the integrity not to commit the same acts? Hmmmm....

There's something to think about.

Take care,

Jason

Daedroth · 06-23-2005, 03:33 PM

Id be very surprised if IRE stole any code... As a matter of fact, I know its impossible. You can tell, by the way their games play. Like no other mu* I've played so far.

Ilkidarios · 06-23-2005, 04:40 PM

Yes, IRE uses a different client. It's very different from other MUDs, and while I don't like their games, I don't believe they have stolen any code. Claiming that Threshold and Matt have stolen code with no evidence aside from pure speculation to back it up is bordering on paranoia. I don't actually remember Matt defending Medievia's code theft, so I doubt he has ever stolen DIKU. I mean, sure, he hasn't exactly admitted that Medievia stole code, but he never said "I support Medievia's code theft."

Threshold · 06-23-2005, 07:35 PM

Could you be any more of an unethical jerk?

By what twisted logic do you conclude I should have to respond to your pointless questions?

The fact that I have not participated in this utterly useless thread is certainly none of your business. I have not been involved in any way with this issue for years. If you want to know what I had to say about it before that, do some research. Get some help from the stalkers here who masturbate to my entire usenet posting history.

Furthermore, where do you get off posing questions that compel someone to answer or else you decide what their answer is for them?

Sounds a lot like the old loaded question "Yes or no: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

Your entire argument here is one of ethics, and then you engage in grossly unethical behavior yourself. Nice work, hypocrite.

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06-19-2005, 03:37 PM	#141
Valg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	Two possibilities: 1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it. He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism. In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty? (And cowardly, to boot.) What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code? 2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar. If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent? Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist? He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law. Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind. If so, shouldn't he post it?

06-19-2005, 06:14 PM	#142
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305

06-19-2005, 08:07 PM	#143
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	Maybe the reason Vryce doesn't answer is because he doesn't feel like it. What do you want him to say? I for one am glad he doesn't say anything, I couldn't care less. At least we won't end up with a Derek Smart on our hands. And frankly, I don't think he's going to be comin out here to say something anytime soon. Him admitting he stole codebase would be like an idiot admitting he was stupid, it just doesn't happen. Who's the last murderer you know who plead guilty? (No, I'm not comparing Vryce to an idiot or a murderer)

06-19-2005, 11:18 PM	#144
Daedroth Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 56

06-20-2005, 02:29 AM	#145
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 791	Easy solution: If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community. If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves. There. Enough said. Take care, Jason

06-20-2005, 10:21 AM	#146
Sinuhe Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 55	the_logos June 19 2005,19:14 It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames. And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post. Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?

06-20-2005, 12:39 PM	#147
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Or, you could just stop flaming them. gasp Why post here asking that? Why not just mail Kyndig or post on Mudmagic asking him? --matt

06-20-2005, 12:43 PM	#148
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft. Of course, I'd also never defend stealing any sort of IP, and there's plenty of that going on in many MUDs on TMS. On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care? Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere and I'm wondering who it is actually directed to. I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it. People could lose their jobs, be unable to pay their mortgages, etc. If, on the other hand, I suffered only mild ego harm, like the DIKU authors did, then I doubt I'd care very much....which is pretty much the stance the DIKU authors seem to have taken, since they dropped the issue years ago. --matt

06-20-2005, 08:43 PM	#149
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 791	Chalk it up to being sick of seeing this topic on the forums featuring rationalizations to defend unethical and immoral acts. Do you approve of Medievia's actions? Yes or no. Same goes for the others that made up excuses as to why Medievia shouldn't be held accountable by whatever means possible for their act of theft. Anyone that doesn't believe that taking something that isn't yours and claiming it as your own when you are aware of to whom ownership belongs as well as their will regarding it. We all know who created the DIKU code and we know their conditions for its use. That known, Medievia chose to steal. Making excuses for people who deliberately committed an immoral act leaves a person guilty of approving of such an act. Harm is harm, and committing an act against another when you know they do not approve of that act is just as immoral regardless of the degree of harm it causes. To put it only in economic terms just shows that you approve of theft except under specific conditions. That's the same as saying you oppose murder but approve of attempted murder as long as it fails and no injury occured. So, back to my question: do you approve of what Medievia did? A simple yes or no will suffice. Take care, Jason

06-21-2005, 07:19 PM	#150
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	I'll answer your question myself: No I don't approve of it, but I just don't care anymore. There's nothing I can do about it. I just want to stop talking about Medievia. All these mindless drones who say "M3DI3VIA DIDN'T ST3AL CODE BECAUSE I'M IGN0R4NT!!!1R0FLMAOLOO00OLLLLLLLLL!!!11" are drawn to discussions like this. Perhaps, like a moth and a lamp, if you turn off the lamp the moth goes wherever it was going. So maybe if we stopped talking about Medievia, the mindless drones will go away. After all, if a kid with ADD gets bored, he will go run with scissors or something.

06-21-2005, 07:31 PM	#151
Daedroth Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 56	So thats how you get rid of ADD kids....

06-22-2005, 09:29 PM	#152
viggs New Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 6	Wow, It took me parts of three days to read all the posts on this subject. Let me start out by saying I am nobody, I do not know law. or licensing or spelling or proper ways to construct a post. I am a mudder. Ive mudded for atleast 7yrs now. I do not own or IMP or IMM any mud past or present . I am a player. Let me say first of all ive never played Medival or whatever , I wouldnt pay to play. I play a mud that had its code stolen is as close As I can get to knowing anything about any of this. The only reason I even came here was to vote for the mud that I play (shameless plug) Abandoned Realms. Then I started read all of this. Here are my insignificat comments I stopped reading Logos posts about half way thru because I found him very hard to read without wanting to reach thru my moniter and slap the smirk off his face. As soon as I read that Soilie or whatever was married to Vyrce I stopped reading hers as well. When someone as full of S*** as her doenst know or want to say what her Husband and BOSS is or is not doing ,.In my world thats a liar. If Its obvious to me that Medivial is stolen . then its stolen, Walks like a duck Quacks like a duck etc etc. I do wonder why its allowed to advertise here and not just about any other voting sites though. Easy enough to guess . Money. Why wouldnt they just say Ok Fine we all know its Diku put and put the credits back. Once again ., Money , Lastly i would like to appoligize for all my spelling ,grammer and strutual errors of this post and thank anyone that got this far into my post. Did I mention Abandoned Realms is the most balanced RP/PK mud ive ever played? wink Thanks again

06-22-2005, 09:42 PM	#153
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	We all feel like that, but he's really not that bad if you talk to him on the forum about non-mud related stuff.

06-22-2005, 09:48 PM	#154
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	I think they could, and have, this train is already so derailed it has crashed into a giant nuclear power plant. Right now we're at the point where we are fighting a post-apocalyptic warlord for the last source of fuel in a bombed out desert wasteland.

06-23-2005, 01:51 PM	#155
Ashon Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 75	This sounded like the management team of Medievia would respond to an email, about the questions that we have had. As of yet, more then what 15 days? There has been no reply? Any Advice Soliel, on how to get a reply from Vyrce, about our questions?

06-23-2005, 02:48 PM	#156
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	Seems to me that if he didn't respond by now, he's not going to respond. As I think I mentioned before, he doesn't feel he needs to answer to the posters here at this forum. Sorry to disappoint you. I think the_logos summed it up rather nicely: So, shrug, looks like you are going to have to do with no answers this time around.

06-23-2005, 03:23 PM	#157
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 791	So in addition to being a thief, Vryce is a coward too. I notice that the_logos, Threshold, et al have yet to respond with a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether or not they agree with Medievia's unethical behavior. I'll make it even easier for them then. If you don't agree, simply say "No." If you do agree and condone theft and lies, simply remain silent as you already have and we'll all get the point and toss cowardice onto the list. I can't help but wonder though. Perhaps those that have defended Medievia have also abused the DIKU license too. If they lack the integrity to understand or admit that Medievia's behavior was wrong, what's to say they have the integrity not to commit the same acts? Hmmmm.... There's something to think about. Take care, Jason

06-23-2005, 03:33 PM	#158
Daedroth Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 56	Id be very surprised if IRE stole any code... As a matter of fact, I know its impossible. You can tell, by the way their games play. Like no other mu* I've played so far.

06-23-2005, 04:40 PM	#159
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	Yes, IRE uses a different client. It's very different from other MUDs, and while I don't like their games, I don't believe they have stolen any code. Claiming that Threshold and Matt have stolen code with no evidence aside from pure speculation to back it up is bordering on paranoia. I don't actually remember Matt defending Medievia's code theft, so I doubt he has ever stolen DIKU. I mean, sure, he hasn't exactly admitted that Medievia stole code, but he never said "I support Medievia's code theft."

06-23-2005, 07:35 PM	#160
Threshold Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Threshold RPG Posts: 1,260	Could you be any more of an unethical jerk? By what twisted logic do you conclude I should have to respond to your pointless questions? The fact that I have not participated in this utterly useless thread is certainly none of your business. I have not been involved in any way with this issue for years. If you want to know what I had to say about it before that, do some research. Get some help from the stalkers here who masturbate to my entire usenet posting history. Furthermore, where do you get off posing questions that compel someone to answer or else you decide what their answer is for them? Sounds a lot like the old loaded question "Yes or no: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Your entire argument here is one of ethics, and then you engage in grossly unethical behavior yourself. Nice work, hypocrite.

Tavern of the Blue Hand

Some direct questions for Synozeer and Medievia