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Old 03-28-2006, 04:35 AM   #1
nass
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Title says it all, triple exp for today only. If you want to try us out, now would be a good day.

http://www.wotmud.org

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Old 03-30-2006, 03:16 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (nass @ Mar. 28 2006,04:35)
Title says it all, triple exp for today only. If you want to try us out, now would be a good day.

http://www.wotmud.org

Nass
Does this have anything to do with your posts on WoT's forums saying that you'll be giving out double or triple xp days if your players vote enough to keep you in the top 5? I don't mean to start a flame war (in fact, I really admire you guys for being one of the few MUDs using someone else's fiction IP that has done the ethical thing and gotten permission), but do you realize that's cheating, according to TMS rules? It appears you guys have been doing it for months now. Screenshots included below.





--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:12 PM   #3
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Oh, and this is interesting as well. I see you guys have an auto-voter for Zmud that votes automatically for you. I tested it, it works. When you connect, it brings up a window, clicks through to TMS for you, and then closes the window. No effort on the part of the voter, and robbing TMS of the exposure that voting is supposed to bring. http://gaernin.aswwc.net/~ibrash/files/AutoVoter.dll

Now, I realize that it's made by one of your players and that there's really nothing you guys can do to stop it even if you wanted to (though I didn't notice any condemnation of it on the forums). I'm not even sure this is against the explicit rules, but I tell you what: If it's not, we are -definitely- going to be building one of these ourselves. The problem here, of course, is that it is absolutely impossible to stop players from building and using one of these, and that it's absolutely impossible for Topmudsites to determine whether someone is auto-voting with this method or not.

Screenshot promoting it from your forums:


--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Mar. 30 2006,23:12)
Oh, and this is interesting as well. I see you guys have an auto-voter for Zmud that votes automatically for you. I tested it, it works. When you connect, it brings up a window, clicks through to TMS for you, and then closes the window. No effort on the part of the voter, and robbing TMS of the exposure that voting is supposed to bring.
Mkay?
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:50 PM   #5
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Well, first, that script in the thread you linked to is different, Angie. It just takes you to the intermediate page where the user has to then click 'confirm' and then close the window. At least, I think that's what it does. In other words, it just brings up the voting page, and the user still has to vote. The script continually crashes Zmud on me and I'm not quite sure what it's doing.

The WoT script actually does everything for you: It opens a window, votes/confirms the vote for you, then closes that window. In any case, my point was that there's nothing anyone can do about this kind of script, which is a bit of a problem.

I'm going to talk to Adam today about this and see what his opinion on it is, given that there's no way for him to stop it without implementing confirmation codes or whatnot.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 05:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Mar. 30 2006,22:50)
Well, first, that script in the thread you linked to is different, Angie. It just takes you to the intermediate page where the user has to then click 'confirm' and then close the window. At least, I think that's what it does. In other words, it just brings up the voting page, and the user still has to vote.
In the link Angie provided, you stated "Yep, that's exactly what the script does. It opens, votes, and closes. It's completely undetectable and completely outside the control of anyone but the end user."

In other words, the script you provided does exactly what the WoT script does.

For some reason this reminds me of the whole Iraq situation - give them WMD, then a few years later attack them for having WMD!

Quote:
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I'm going to talk to Adam today about this and see what his opinion on it is, given that there's no way for him to stop it without implementing confirmation codes or whatnot.
Well he already told you, in the link the Angie provided: "If it's entirely an end-user thing and independant of the mud, there's no problem with it, since a user can choose to vote how they would like to, as long as they don't try to get around the once every 12 hours rule."
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Old 03-30-2006, 06:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by

In the link Angie provided, you stated "Yep, that's exactly what the script does. It opens, votes, and closes. It's completely undetectable and completely outside the control of anyone but the end user."

In other words, the script you provided does exactly what the WoT script does.
I was incorrect in stating that's what the script does. The person who had tested it for me had assumed that just being taken to the TMS 'confirm you want to vote' page counts as a vote, but it doesn't. It just opens that page for you and requires the user to then manually vote. The WoT script does it all for you with no action needed on the part of the end user beyond dropping the dll into the zmud directory once.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 06:49 PM   #8
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I haven't tested either, but if yours does not do the same as the WoT one, it's not for lack of trying.
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Old 03-30-2006, 07:16 PM   #9
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It occured to me that there may be a way to stop this from working, but it depends on what the DLL looks for when it clicks through the confirm vote page. It's probably reasonably possible for Adam to change the confirm graphic and click-space every few days, forcing this kind of script to be updated often to maintain compatibility. Without the source to the DLL though, I'm not sure how easy it'll be to tell.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 08:29 PM   #10
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So what happens to muds such as this who are found to be breaking the TMS voting rules?
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Old 03-30-2006, 08:59 PM   #11
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Triple exp was not given out for any voting done on TMC. It was given for another reason.
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Old 03-30-2006, 09:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Splork @ Mar. 30 2006,20:29)
So what happens to muds such as this who are found to be breaking the TMS voting rules?
Well, in the past, cheaters have typically been kicked off. The script thing, incidentally, doesn't appear to be cheating, though the rewarding-for-voting is definitely cheating. Given, though, that they are fairly rare for muds using other peoples' fictions in that they do the ethical thing and get permission to use Wheel of Time before using it, I, at least, am willing to give Nass the benefit of the doubt and assume he thought it was legal. The muds that have been kicked off definitely had admins who knew they were breaking the rules.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 09:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Daishantheinfantite @ Mar. 30 2006,20:59)
Triple exp was not given out for any voting done on TMC. It was given for another reason.
I couldn't comment on TMC, but we're talking about TMS, and I included screenshots showing Nass specifically stating that they'll be giving rewards for voting. He might not have known that it was against the rules (I really don't know), but that it was done is pretty manifestly obvious.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 09:39 PM   #14
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This explains their rapid rise through the voting ranks in the last few days. All of our MUDs could skyrocket our number of votes if we started bribing our players to do it.

Come on, play fair. If this isn't cracked down on, then we're just all going to have to end up doing the exact same thing to compete, and the only ones that will suffer in the end are people who think they're coming to TMS to see an accurate list of popular MUDs.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aarn @ Mar. 30 2006,21:39)
If this isn't cracked down on, then we're just all going to have to end up doing the exact same thing to compete, and the only ones that will suffer in the end are people who think they're coming to TMS to see an accurate list of popular MUDs.
To be fair, TMS isn't at all an accurate list of the most popular MUDs or even the most popular text MUDs. A lot of the MUDs in the top 10 list now wouldn't be there if it was. Carrion Fields, Aetolia, Lusternia, Imperian, Armaggedon would definitely not be in the top 10, and I'm unsure about Threshold and Discworld's playerbase size. Batmud, Shangri-la, Gemstone IV, Dragonrealms would certainly be in there, along, no doubt, with some others.

But yes, I completely agree that a rules violation so blatant can't be allowed to continue. I have faith that Nass will cease the practice as soon as he sees this thread though.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:08 PM   #16
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Heh. Its just one scandal after another at this site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ("Synozeer" @ ,)
Do I have to put a voting button or link on my web site?
If you wish to be ranked on the list, you must have a voting link back to this site. A ranking list works because you send traffic to this site, and in turn you'll also receive traffic.
http://www.webopedia.com defines traffic as the measurement of users that visit a website. So I don't think any autovoter.dll counts as "traffic" if nobody actually views the site.

Nice catch the_logos.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Davairus @ Mar. 30 2006,22:08)
http://www.webopedia.com defines traffic as the measurement of users that visit a website. So I don't think any autovoter.dll counts as "traffic" if nobody actually views the site.

Nice catch the_logos.
Well, I'm sure people could debate whether it's traffic or not, but it's certainly not USEFUL traffic. Again though, the real issue is that presently on TMS, there is -no way- to either detect its use or stop it from being used. I don't know what Adam can do about that. It seems like the kind of thing that is guaranteed to spread too, if only because it's genuinely easier for the end user, and the end user is always going to gravitate towards lower effort, all other things being equal.

--matt
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:15 PM   #18
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This triple exp was _not_ given for voting on neither TMC nor TMS, as far as I know. Originally, yes, Nass said we would get double exp for being in the top #'s, but then, if you go back and read this thread again
http://www.wotmud.org/forums....m=74&43

The next to last post on the first page Nass says that he was notified that rewards for voting was a no-no, and he complied.

The triple exp from this topic comes from this
http://www.wotmud.org/forums....m=74&57

It was supposed to just be double exp...but it got upgraded to triple, apparently on a (most appreciated) whim.
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
This triple exp was _not_ given for voting on neither TMC nor TMS, as far as I know. Originally, yes, Nass said we would get double exp for being in the top #'s, but then, if you go back and read this thread again
http://www.wotmud.org/forums....m=74&43
Ahh! It seems he's been told it's illegal. That's good. It was definitely done though. If you go back and look at the dates of the screenshots I posted, he was offering to reward players for voting as far back as December.

--matt
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:16 AM   #20
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Imperian had a double exp event, and then I voted for them
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