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Old 09-22-2002, 01:06 AM   #21
Scorpcrys
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Ok, we all agree it's about advertizing, but is it false advertizing?

I agree that the list, in its state now is going to depend on the number of people who play it, not how many times one person or a few people can push a button. If that's so, and it is about the number of people who play i'd like to know how many REAL people represent the number of votes they have. One hundred votes made by the same person doesn't have the credablity as say 5 votes made by 5 different people. Just my opinion. And i hope that everyone who sees this list is aware of how it is scored and the "tactics" used to get votes.

As for the quotes, the person who wrote the review at RPGplanet.com is not employeed by the company. Therefore RPGplanet.com did not say that quote ("The only MUD that still matters."). Do i blame them for advertizing? No. But they are cleary representing their product dishonestly.

As for the comment about Simutronics. Simutronics has actually asked people NOT to vote as often as they could. Not nagging people who are trying to RP in game with OCC requests to vote for their MUD. So please don't compare with the two.

A thought comes to mind when i saw exactly how the "blessing" worked. It seems to me that players who don't vote will be at a significant disadvantage to those who do. To me this do not appear to be encouragement, it pretty much forces you to vote if you want to stay ahead in the game.

Again slimy. People should choose to vote because they love the game, not because they are forced to.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:27 AM   #22
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I'd have to agree with everything rhakshai said.

At first I thought it was an artocity, until I realised why I thought it was an atrocity. People are recieving IC rewards for OOC actions. Now if the Imms ever thought of implementing this at Armageddon, I'd kill them. Why? because Armageddon is an RPI, so IC rewards for an OOC action is ridiculous.

Now what about Muds, that are H&S or RP Encouraged? From a PLAYERS point of view I don't see a problem with it for H&S and not TOO big a problem with RP encouraged muds. But that's the view I'd have as a PLAYER from said Mud.

The voting system ISN'T for the best, it's for the most heavily populated mud. And I don't see anything wrong with this, as when I look for a new mud, just as a break from Armageddon, I -want- a heavily populated Mud, and love the system that is in place here.

I think the only people who should really care about Achea's voting system, are the players.

If THEY mind having a message every 10mins saying "Don't forget to vote" then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

If THEY have a problem with people recieving IC benefits for voting, then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

That's what I think the issue should be, are the players getting annoyed? If they aren't then who cares, but if they are and it doesn't change, then I think the Muds who use this system will suffer, because the players will either leave or stop voting.

Although I can understand everyone's frustration. Because they try so hard to create a good mud, and then have another mud beat them by a method that would be considered "not right" if they implemented in their Mud.

The only problem I could possibly have as a non-Achea person, is if they were bribing the TMS staff.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:29 AM   #23
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:09 AM   #24
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Thanks for the consessions and admitting that not everything is all and well. But i too must admit i'm biased. I'm a long time Dragonrealms player that was recently introduced to this site (along with the entire playerbase).

So i can verify that there was *one* in game announcement that the button had put up. I wasn't playing at the time but there has been alot of discussion about it on our message boards. That's a big difference from a daily "reminder". And i can also tell you for a fact that the Simutronics staff has asked the players not to vote simply because they can.

I'm sorry but this statement is so wrong. The following is a quote from the Dragonrealms message board:

This numbers are pretty typical (if you're wondering if this might be particulary busy night).

Is this list reflecting population of the MUD? No. It is reflecting quality of the MUD? Perhaps on a more general level i say yes it is. It would more so if the administaters let the players make the desicion to vote or not.

I think we all have to accept this list for what it is and not base our MUD's worth on it.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:26 AM   #25
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:47 AM   #26
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:59 AM   #27
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Old 09-22-2002, 03:38 AM   #28
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Old 09-22-2002, 04:34 AM   #29
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See...that's the tacky part, IMO.

If *WE* offered any sort of in-game "prize" or incentive (ar annoying reminder) to vote, I shudder to think of what the results would be.  I mean seriously...if we could just get everyone in the three versions of DR that are running right now to vote, (aside from crashing TMS again) the result would be rediculous and Achaea would never be able to compete.

Imagine the impact that any sort of in-game carrot would have. :\
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Old 09-22-2002, 07:31 AM   #30
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As of this posting I'm willing to wager that the top 7 muds on the list are all in the top 15 or or so muds in existance as far as pbase is concerned. Seems to be pretty accurate in terms of size to me.  If you want to split hairs over the order then we can do that, but as a whole it reflects exactly what the system is set-up to do.

Players do make the desicion to vote or not.  If it really bothers the players of Achaea to vote that much then they can leave, if the players of DR are that upset that another mud is above them in the list they can vote and change it.  Why?  Because they have the population to do it, and because they have that choice.
This is exactly what I am getting at.  It's not cheating, NOWHERE in the terms of service is encouraging players to vote (no matter the means) against any rule.  I think charging to play in special events to be evil and misleading to players, so does that mean its wrong and cheating to do it?  Not at all.  I think paying for banners on mud sites is unfair for free muds who can't afford that type of advertising, should muds not be allowed to do it?  Of course not.   You give someone the oppurtunity for free advertising you have to expect some will take advantage of it more so than others.
The real issue is what the thread started out with, the misleading ads.  And from the looks of things the "voted #1 mud on earth" ad may just end up being true, no matter how much everyone despises it.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:07 PM   #31
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The Achaea game is aquiring a very bad reputation over these issues. Tavish's posts are quickly losing creditablity as each statement he says is contradicted and proven otherwise.

Just because what Achaea is doing is not against terms of service does not mean that it isn't "cheating". You are inflating your vote by a lot and contaminating this list and making it worthless. This scheme has cheapened the ranks and made it meaningless, ruining it for everyone. Never the less, you seem to be unwavering on your stance so i hope it serves your purposes (one way or another). And i hope it was worth dragging your game's name in the mud. I, for one, will never play Achaea after seeing the child-like behavior displayed the game's adiministration.

If this list means so much to you that you would destroy it's interigity and your own, so be it. What's that saying? Let the baby have his bottle?
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:28 PM   #32
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Actually I am in no way affiliated with Achaea, I am work on my mud as a hobby.  What concerns me is the fact that people are trying to control how others run thier mud.  When (if) I do go public I would hate to think that if I were to put my mud on the list I would be subjected to scrunity of the things I can say or do within my system.  Things that are in no way contraditing the terms of service I signed up for.

Actually I see it just the oppostie.  DR seems to be complaining an awful lot about the fact that they are number 2 on the list when they turn around and post they have nearly 1000 players on during peak times.  They recieve the same free advertising for using the list that all the other muds do.  If it bothers them this much perhaps the players should vote more often.  Surely you can find enough people willing to glorify the game that would boost you to the top.  Perhaps then the constant complaints about other games will stop.

Show me any statement of mine proven wrong or contradicted by anything other than the same complaint of cheating some hidden "spirit of the rules".  

Consider what Achaea is doing to be beneath you all you want, but it is not cheating.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:09 PM   #33
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I don't really have a problem with Achea because it's practices are necessarily against the rules, but rather because they are unethical on the whole. Now, what is unethical? Debate that ad nausem if you wish. But, I do consider what they are doing as bribery, which, in at least my, and I'd imagine any non-Machiavellian mind, is not something one should be doing. Here's the dictionary definition of bribe(the noun, not the verb):

Now, I'd consider experience as a 'something', and it is definitely offered to influence someone that is in a position of trust's (anyone who votes here is trusted to vote for the product that they consider a Top Mud) conduct (in this case voting) to doing something they may otherwise not do were it not offered.

Perhaps it is not explicitly against the rules, but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps it's not explicitly wrong, but perhaps it should be.

If someone wishes to condone, or even defend bribery, that's their thing, but come on, at least just call it what it is.

~Meta~
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:16 PM   #34
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Please tell me how this is complaining. I gave the numbers to prove a point which is quite clear in my post.

It is simply redundant for me to repeat myself. Please read the previous posts and answer your own questions.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:22 PM   #35
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:28 PM   #36
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I have no problem at all calling it bribery.  But if it is not against the rules of the system then why is everyone complaining about it?  MUD A bribes players with experience to gain votes, MUD B puts up daily reminders for players to votes, MUD C does nothing except put the link up.  They all are doing what they believe is right within the system.  Does that give MUD C the right to call A and B cheaters because they use methods that they do not?  How is posting notes that encourage players to vote any different than offering exp for votes.  The experience bonus is completely contained within that mud's game.  If I put the ultimatium out to my players that if you do not vote for my mud you will be banned, is it the communities job to stop me from doing that, or is it my players desicion to put up with it or leave?
The point still stands that unless Synozeer changes the terms of service for the voting list, you can consider those types of tatics to be unethical, slimy, evil or whatever, but it is NOT cheating.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:32 PM   #37
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:46 PM   #38
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Alright, this has gone on long enough.

My original post was to air to topics:

1) To inform people of what had changed in the community so everyone is not standing around wondering what on earth happened to make Achaea #1 on the list.

2) To figure out if there was a ruling on the subject and whether there should be.

3) And finally, but least important, was to express my personal and individual take on the subject.

I was happy to get some response and not have the issue ignored, but I would have been equally happy if everyone agreed that it was unethical, or that it was fine, or if everyone disagreed.

But now people are turning it into personal redicule and jabs which is very unbecoming of us, we who are supposed to be an example of the mudding community.  I would like to think we can debate these topics in a civilized manner rather than spamming the members with arguements of "Read my post before you post" and "You read mine first!"  It is getting us nowhere.

Furthur more, most are arguing the same thing:  Is it cheating? Well, that depends on your definition.  Is it breaking the rules of this site: No, is it breaking rules or morality: perhaps, that is an individual opinion.  To say it is cheating does not give us a reference to judge from.  To say its cheating according to TopMudSites.com is basically to say does Synozeer consider it cheating, Travish says no, which means Travish doesn't consider it cheating, nothing more, nothing less.  Travish, you have no right to say that Scorpcrys opinion is wrong, neither does he have the right to say that yours is.

Now, we should stop attacking each other, and attack the issue at hand as productive members of the mudding community, not like whining children.  If this continues we'll have a 50 page flame of "You started it!" and "Did not, you did!"

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive to some parties, it was not intended to be.

James Meyer
aka Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:46 PM   #39
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Incase you haven't noticed, Simububba is a producer of Dragonrealms and certainly the has the last word on how the DR community feels about this issue.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:50 PM   #40
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