[Hardestadt]

Perhaps in line with what you're saying all muds should carry a esrb like warning.

Warning: You game experience may change while playing online.

The MMO nature of muds generally means that yes, other players effect your game experience. This is hardly anything new, having been occuring in muds for decades now.

I don't think anyone is debating that she lost something, but rather that she lost something based on player, not admin actions. Given she received a full refund as part of IRE's great approach to customer service, quibbling over lost lessons is something of a moot point.

Leigh

P.s. Valg, that last statement isn't directed at you.

[Hardestadt]

[Cierel]

I think the ultimate test of a business model has to lie with the customers. Achaea, Aetolia, and Imperian make money and have very few players launching attacks like this one. Given IRE games' playerbase, that's impressive.

There are also quite a number of people who spend no money at all on IRE games despite playing for years. They're obviously not so disgusted by the system that they feel they cannot compete with those who pay. If this is a crime, who's claiming to be the victim? Disgruntled people like Kimberly don't count; even if you detest Achaea, you can't view her claims as anything but ludicrous.

(Incidentally, I know Threshold used to have a system that amounted to pay for perks. It may have changed, but I'll leave that to the people who know Threshold better than I do.)

[Reyas]

Actually, what I've been debating is IF she 'lost' anything (which she didn't) then she 'lost' it NOT based on a player, but on herself.

[Hardestadt]

Threshold have a once off donation I think.. I dimly recall something about the administration there going so far as telling someone to donate blood so they can pay it, hehe.

[Ebony]

Just to let people know, the IRE admins getting involved like this is extremely rare. Plenty of people spend loads of money on credits for lessons or artifacts (special thingies, for lack of a better term) only to see them become less useful, sometimes dramatically. No one complains like Kimberly did. I personally have lost plenty of lessons due to changing guilds and haven't batted an eye.
One other thing: She spent what, $70? Isn't the minimum amount you can sue for around $100?

[tehScarecrow]

[Yui Unifex]

Then you shouldn't have made any sort of claim that assumes truth.

[Hardestadt]

Mate, don't claim to know about things you obviously know nothing about.

Why not, exactly? Because I don't feel compelled to spend hours digging through old threads for conspiracy theories?

[the_logos]

Right. Because we want to get sued for contract violations. Clearly.

--matt

[Yui Unifex]

If that's the only way to backup your claims, then yes. If you say, "Look at all the conspiracies!", but then say you "really can't be bothered"to point out concrete evidence of them, your credibility for that claim goes down the tubes. It's just that simple.

[Harker]

Over the course of the year I played Achaea, I spent upwards of seven thousand dollars there. I never regretted one penny of it. Iron Realms' environment was more than worth the investment.

The reason I stopped playing Achaea was that I moved to a different Iron Realms game and repeated the process, spending at least that much more over the next year.

1) You can advance in any IRE game for free. It is slower, but it is eminently workable.

2) There are numerous in character means of obtaining the "credits" which can be purchased for real money.

3) The first character in Achaea to reach level 100 spent very little if any real money on the game, using mostly if not entirely in character means of obtaining his power and prestige.

Iron Realms is an ethical company. They're the first choice of entertainment for most of the players of their games. You should take a look at the worlds they offer.

[Maelgrim]

A lot of accusations have been levelled at Threshold's admin over the years. Most created or at the very least embellished by a particular group of trolls who seem to think it is their holy mission to ruin the playerbase in general's fun.

As far as Threshold's payment system goes. There is a compulsory payment to 'Register' your Character. Threshold basically becomes pay-for-perks after that. The difference is that Threshold's perks have minimal, if any, affect on the game itself. And NONE of them are required for advancement.

It is expected that players will continue to support the game with donations over the period of their play, but considering we are an 18+ mud, the amount that is expected is hardly one that is not VOLUNTARILY exceeded by almost every player in the game.

[Alastair]

Not really, no, and it was a matter about ownership of the codebase Threshold had been developed upon, and whether he would be allowed to charge anything at all for it. To my knowledge, the issue has been resolved years ago.

I'm sorry you feel people who believe someone who makes money off someone else's work are out to ruin the playerbase's fun. Obviously, if you are driven around in an allegedly stolen car, the cops will stop the vehicule only to ruin your experience, not to check whether the car is the one they are looking for.

I just hope your car never gets stolen, so that you won't be called a troll runing everyone's fun when trying to get it back.

[Rundvelt]

Achaea is a pretty good mud run by decent people. They have made mistakes in the past, but who hasn't. This comment isn't really to slight them, just to point out a couple of things that they (and other muds like them) should seriously consider when they are accepting money for their services...

1) With players running the clans, any complaints that occur because of "loss of" PAID abilities (such as lessons as one person said), is VERY actionable in a court of law. Especially when it's a 3rd party removing (or altering) the customer's paid product. Because then it's the burden of the service provider to prove that their agents acted properly.

2) With any sort of "payment" for a character, the player then does have some legal ground for character ownership. This means that it may be illegal for your to "nuke" someone who has paid for the character depending on your state.

I'm paraphrasing of course. These are the laws (at least, as I remember them. I could be wrong but I don't think so) from Canada, so they may or may not be different then the states.

Also, it's very important to look at the law and see what you can and cannot place into a contract. For example, a company cannot void a guarantee in a contract. Depending on what state (or even country), you reside in, it may be illegal for you to confiscate their paid product on your server.

But since you refunded Kimberly's money, the point is moot.

[Kastagaar]

And then there's the EULA, in which the players most likely waived the above.

[Rundvelt]

[Maelgrim]

[Jazuela]

When you pay to play a mud-type game online, you are paying for time on their server. You aren't paying for anything else. The company has the right to reject your request to "rent time" on their server, and you have the right to cease payment if you find your time is better spent elsewhere.

You aren't paying for a "thing." You aren't paying for copyright rights, you aren't paying for the privilege of having a level 99 warrior character. You're not even paying for your account. It isn't YOUR account. It is owned by the company that allows you to use it in exchange for money. Once the money stops coming, you no longer have access to it. All data contained in the hard drive/server of the company that owns the game, belongs to the company.

The only thing that is your "right" to "own" is the payment information, including your name, address, phone number, credit card number, bank account number if you choose to use check transfers, etc. etc. etc. Your "fantasy life" is not owned by you, nor do you have any "rights" to it. You have only the "right" to use it during the length of your subscription.

In a pay-for-perks-optional game, what you are paying for, again, is time. You are letting them adjust your character's data on your behalf so that you don't have to use your own time doing so yourself. Once that data is adjusted, it is up to you to decide whether or not your character will maintain that adjustment. Whether it's "possessing" a +5 steel katana, or a boost to your strength stat, or a "magnificently crafted steel and adamantum blessed broadsword with a hilt so black it absorbs all light within a 20-league radius." You don't own that - you don't have the "right" to keep it. You can't take it with you, you can't remove it from their database. All you have - is the opportunity to have your character's pfile adjusted to reflect the impression that the character has this thing. Then once he has it - someone can steal it, the character could break it, he could decide never to use it and let it collect dust in a locker, or you as a player could disobey the rules of the game and end up sitebanned as a result, with no refund - because your character DID get this adjustment made to its file, as promised and paid for.

[Kinnith]

Jazuela Im quite confused about your post, you state, and I quote

Yet tword the end of your post you go on to say that you pay for the adjustments
made to your data, now I can honestly say I dont know how you think, but that is
paying money for something on a game, not for the time. Paying for the time would
mean only one thing, and that is, The only way your money affects your player, is
it allows you to play on their sever. And seeing as how you can play for free on
their server, you are paying for so called "Fantasy" items as you so put it.

Im not here to tell you, that you are incorrect, but that your post conflicts within
its-self.