Tavern of the Blue Hand

lovechiefs · 02-26-2006, 01:16 AM

Hey guys
I love playing MUDs and I am playing all of the IRE muds.Let me say that those muds are great and the staff and players are very helpful and friendly.IRE java telnet is also great.
I am looking to add another one or two muds to my gaming list.
I am trying my hand at Carrion Fields,but I am not sure.That Mud is really complicate and hard to get into.I don't know.Maybe it is just me and my stupidity.
In any case,I am about to try Materia Magica and Medievia.
I have read that both of those muds were caught cheating.I don't like cheating,however,I am willing to give them a fair chance.
Would you guys please give me your honest opinions on Carrion Fields,Materia Magica and Medievia?

Anitra · 02-26-2006, 03:04 AM

You say that you don't like cheating, yet you single out the two that have been caught and exposed for blatant unethical behaviour.

Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

Why not try a free mud instead of a commercial for a change? There are dozens of really good quality free Muds, that are in most ways just as good as the commercial ones, and where money doesn't affect the gameplay in any way. Many of them are very newbie friendly too.

They may not have as big a playerbase as the commercial ones, because they don't have the money to pay for banners and ads. But that doesn't mean they are not quite as good gamewise. Some of them have been on line for 5-10 years, they are stable, balanced, with unique worlds and lots of interesting features, and have a limited but loyal playerbase, where many players have been with them for years.

You don't need hundreds of players on line at peak time to have fun in a mud. If they have 20-50 instead, it will be much less spammy and much easier to find a personal group of friends. It will get you more easily involved in the plots and Clans, more personal treatment from the imms, and you'll be able to find hunting grounds where someone else hasn't already cleared out the mobs.

Personally I'd choose a smaller mud, free any time.
And I'd most certainly never play a mud where the owner is known to break licences or cheat on voting lists. If they are dishonest in one aspect, do you really think they will run a fair game? Their main interest will be to wheedle as much money as possible out of their players.

Kinnith · 02-26-2006, 03:34 AM

Drealoth · 02-26-2006, 04:06 AM

Medievia is a Merc MUD that doesn't follow the Merc or DIKU (from which Merc is derrived) licenses. Does this make it a bad game? Of course not. I wouldn't play the game, not because I think it's a bad game but because of the moral issues. This is the same reason that I wouldn't drive a stolen car - not because it would be a bad car, but because it's stolen and I am against theft. It's breaking licenses like this that hurts the open source community, and people who do this are just common thieves, and I don't want anything to do with them.

As for features outweighing the bad things, that's like saying "I don't support people stealing cars, but this is a Ferarri so it's okay."

As for Materia Magica, as far as I know the only issue was that they were cheating with TMS, using bots to get more votes for themselves. They got caught and they were punished, and as far as I know that's the end of that. As for the game, I haven't played it so I can't say. It seems like a decent enough concept.

As for the Carrion Fields (to the creators - sorry about lumping you in with these other two muds...) I've only played it for a little bit, but it seems to be a very solid game. I get the impression that it's a PK mud and then an RP mud (not the reverse), but it still is a pretty fun game and definitely is worth checking out at least.

In conclusion, I really hope that you choose not to play Medievia. It might not seem like a big deal, but if you encourage and support this behaviour, the free and open source software is going to stop coming.

Soleil · 02-26-2006, 06:59 AM

This is ridiculous. The Merc that you say we are was 28,000 lines of broken code. Medievia today is over 500,000 lines of code. Every single line of code and man hour spent coding since 1991 is NOT Merc.

I know the argument, I've been around for many years. Bring it up if you want to but the fact remains that we are STILL here and we are still growing. The argument doesn't matter.

Anyways, to lovechiefs- Give Medievia a try. We are implementing new code daily and have just finished a new module for players new to the game. Learning Medievia is part of the game... no more tutorial! You should check us out for a few hours and see what you think.

Davairus · 02-26-2006, 07:20 AM

The problem with opinions is everybody's got one.

Have you tried the mud reviews? There's a lot of reviews written for those games, right.. that'll help you build up an impression better than this thread will. At least, for the other two.

CF:
MM:
Medievia:

Also, AR is a diku derivative you might like if you appreciated these kind of games. Totally free of course. Happy MUD hunting.

Baram · 02-26-2006, 07:29 AM

Which means you are derrived from MERC, and therefore still bound by the lincence that you don't follow. Facts still stand.

KaVir · 02-26-2006, 08:34 AM

Nothing broken about it - it works perfectly fine, and is considerably better written than the Medievia code was the last time I reviewed it.

However that still doesn't change the fact that you are a Merc derivative. The fact that you've managed to get away with violating someone else's licence doesn't change the fact that you're breaking the law.

Since February 1993, you mean. Merc wasn't even released until 18th December 1992.

Kallekins · 02-26-2006, 09:44 AM

My honest opinion is that if you are playing all the IRE muds (that is what 3 or 4?) and looking to add another, anything will be too complicated. I think you should pick one mud, learn it thoroughly, and get into it no matter how complicated. (Also pick just one alt, but that's another debate).

lovechiefs · 02-26-2006, 10:15 AM

Well guys,I played Materia and Medievia for a little bit and from the little I have seen,I have to say that Carrion Fields is by all means superior to them.
As such,I guess I will have to grind it out in Carrion Fields

Valg · 02-26-2006, 04:13 PM

1) Don't mind Soleil. She makes a living off of stolen goods, doesn't even bother to credit the original authors, and thus has to pretend that the concept of derivative software is beyond her. I've enclosed the US Patent Office's take on it below, in case anyone is curious.

2) As for CF, we draw a mix of players who prioritize PK and RP differently. We enforce standards for RP, but some people do play a simple role, and basically RP enough to stay within the rules and not break anyone's immersion. We also draw people who try to avoid PK like it was the plague, but will happily help run multi-hour RP sessions in places like the Inn of the Eternal Star. (They are nonetheless "in the PK system" in the sense that someone could attempt to barge into the Inn and start a ruckus, though the bouncers might have something to say about that.)

"A derivative work is a work "based upon" one or more preexisting works. A derivative work is created when one or more preexisting works is "recast, transformed, or adapted" into a new work, such as when a novel is used as the basis of a movie or when a drawing is transformed into a sculpture. Translations, musical arrangements and abridgments are types of derivative works. The Copyright Act makes clear that the subject matter of copyright specified in Section 102 (literary works, musical works, sound recordings, etc.) includes compilations and derivative works. The copyright in a derivative work or compilation, however, extends only to the contribution of the author of the derivative work or compilation (the compiler), and does not affect the copyright protection granted to the preexisting material. Protection for an individual musical work, for instance, is not reduced, enlarged, shortened or extended if the work is included in a collection, such as a medley of songs...

A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work.'"

Actually, if someone is willing, it might be happy to have a well-organized "simple facts about derivative works" thread, where we could post various legal definitions. This way, when Soleil's boss cracks the whip and she's forced to put on her tired-ass "Derivative? Who, us?" charade, we can just point her there instead of wasting time typing it out again. It would also be handy for newer, responsible admins who are interested in making sure their game does not violate their licenses.

the_logos · 02-27-2006, 02:32 PM

If this thread is going to degenerate into the usual name-calling and flaming against Soleil (or anyone else), I'm going to start moderating.

--matt

Clifton · 02-27-2006, 02:36 PM

Good luck with it. If you find you get bored or tired, check out the mud I play.

Soleil · 02-27-2006, 04:10 PM

KaVir · 02-27-2006, 04:51 PM

Maybe they just wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt? I mean, it's only really naive from the perspective of someone who knows your reputation.

Either way, it's certainly nicer than automatically assuming that someone is knowingly violating the Diku licence. While I've certainly encountered people with the same attitude as you over the years, I've also encountered those who honestly didn't seem to realise what they were doing was wrong, and were more than happy to correct the issue once it was explained to them.

Drealoth · 02-27-2006, 05:56 PM

So let's look at a little comparison someone made.

Of course, this is all just coincidence.

And Soleil, I forget so can you remind me, umm, why is Medievia banned from TopMudSites again?

Valg · 02-27-2006, 07:14 PM

Logos,

The original poster wrote: I have read that both of those muds were caught cheating. I don't like cheating, however, I am willing to give them a fair chance. Would you guys please give me your honest opinions on Carrion Fields,Materia Magica and Medievia?

Given that the forum is "the place to post about anything", and given that the original poster asked about both ethical issues and Medievia, why is a discussion about Medievia's lack of credit to the MUD they are derived from forbidden? If Soleil is allowed to slam the Merc authors for producing "28,000 lines of broken code", other people pointing out that it made her financial living possible seems fair. Part of the crux of the Medievia debate is precisely that they don't give credit for the intellectual property they exploit.

Plagiarism is a topic of broad interest to the community. Heavy-handed suppression of that discussion is less than appropriate.

Davairus · 02-28-2006, 07:02 AM

The cases "Soleil" and "anyone" clearly refer to ad hominem attacks upon people, a rule which is in place at many forums all over the world. Here's a nice diagram to explain why this is:

Unfortunately here is Orion_Elder's official "Laws of the Tavern" thread, which seems to forbid only foul language and spam:

The only criticism I can see valid for the_logos here is that the board doesn't seem to forbid in any way what people were doing, although I think his request for everyone to stop flaming other people is completely reasonable.

Now this:
Would be the exact kind of thing I am referring to.

the_logos · 02-28-2006, 11:35 AM

Yes, the original poster asked for opinions on Medievia, not for opinions on Soleil. It'd be nice if certain posters here could recognize the difference between attacking an idea or a product, and attacking a person. Attack Medievia all you want, but let's leave the ad hominem attacks out of it unless the original poster in a thread asked for those. Every time Medievia is mentioned, one doesn't have to go on the warpath against all and sundry.

--matt

Aarn · 02-28-2006, 04:04 PM

Quoting the logos:
I'm sorry, this doesn't make much sense. The original poster asked about cheating specifically, Soliel said "We don't cheat!" and Valg replied with pretty simple evidence for why Soliel and her mud are cheating the license agreement. He talked about Medievia and one of the people who run Medievia. The two seem patently related to each other, and very much relevant to the original post. He asked, and I quote, for "honest opinions", on an open forum.

If anyone is taking this off-topic it's the_logos. I suppose I shouldn't encourage him, but I had to point this out.

MUD recommendations - Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Mud Hosting Recommendations	Atyreus	MUD Administration	6	05-29-2006 11:34 PM
Looking for Web Designer Recommendations	Sanvean	MUD Administration	10	03-28-2005 02:23 AM
Literature recommendations	Zulu Maud	MUD Coding	4	06-29-2002 06:16 PM

02-26-2006, 01:16 AM	#1
lovechiefs Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 71	Hey guys I love playing MUDs and I am playing all of the IRE muds.Let me say that those muds are great and the staff and players are very helpful and friendly.IRE java telnet is also great. I am looking to add another one or two muds to my gaming list. I am trying my hand at Carrion Fields,but I am not sure.That Mud is really complicate and hard to get into.I don't know.Maybe it is just me and my stupidity. In any case,I am about to try Materia Magica and Medievia. I have read that both of those muds were caught cheating.I don't like cheating,however,I am willing to give them a fair chance. Would you guys please give me your honest opinions on Carrion Fields,Materia Magica and Medievia?

02-26-2006, 03:04 AM	#2
Anitra Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 123	You say that you don't like cheating, yet you single out the two that have been caught and exposed for blatant unethical behaviour. Why? It doesn't make sense to me. Why not try a free mud instead of a commercial for a change? There are dozens of really good quality free Muds, that are in most ways just as good as the commercial ones, and where money doesn't affect the gameplay in any way. Many of them are very newbie friendly too. They may not have as big a playerbase as the commercial ones, because they don't have the money to pay for banners and ads. But that doesn't mean they are not quite as good gamewise. Some of them have been on line for 5-10 years, they are stable, balanced, with unique worlds and lots of interesting features, and have a limited but loyal playerbase, where many players have been with them for years. You don't need hundreds of players on line at peak time to have fun in a mud. If they have 20-50 instead, it will be much less spammy and much easier to find a personal group of friends. It will get you more easily involved in the plots and Clans, more personal treatment from the imms, and you'll be able to find hunting grounds where someone else hasn't already cleared out the mobs. Personally I'd choose a smaller mud, free any time. And I'd most certainly never play a mud where the owner is known to break licences or cheat on voting lists. If they are dishonest in one aspect, do you really think they will run a fair game? Their main interest will be to wheedle as much money as possible out of their players.

02-26-2006, 03:34 AM	#3
Kinnith Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 31

02-26-2006, 04:06 AM	#4
Drealoth Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Japan Posts: 74	Medievia is a Merc MUD that doesn't follow the Merc or DIKU (from which Merc is derrived) licenses. Does this make it a bad game? Of course not. I wouldn't play the game, not because I think it's a bad game but because of the moral issues. This is the same reason that I wouldn't drive a stolen car - not because it would be a bad car, but because it's stolen and I am against theft. It's breaking licenses like this that hurts the open source community, and people who do this are just common thieves, and I don't want anything to do with them. As for features outweighing the bad things, that's like saying "I don't support people stealing cars, but this is a Ferarri so it's okay." As for Materia Magica, as far as I know the only issue was that they were cheating with TMS, using bots to get more votes for themselves. They got caught and they were punished, and as far as I know that's the end of that. As for the game, I haven't played it so I can't say. It seems like a decent enough concept. As for the Carrion Fields (to the creators - sorry about lumping you in with these other two muds...) I've only played it for a little bit, but it seems to be a very solid game. I get the impression that it's a PK mud and then an RP mud (not the reverse), but it still is a pretty fun game and definitely is worth checking out at least. In conclusion, I really hope that you choose not to play Medievia. It might not seem like a big deal, but if you encourage and support this behaviour, the free and open source software is going to stop coming.

02-26-2006, 06:59 AM	#5
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	This is ridiculous. The Merc that you say we are was 28,000 lines of broken code. Medievia today is over 500,000 lines of code. Every single line of code and man hour spent coding since 1991 is NOT Merc. I know the argument, I've been around for many years. Bring it up if you want to but the fact remains that we are STILL here and we are still growing. The argument doesn't matter. Anyways, to lovechiefs- Give Medievia a try. We are implementing new code daily and have just finished a new module for players new to the game. Learning Medievia is part of the game... no more tutorial! You should check us out for a few hours and see what you think.

02-26-2006, 07:20 AM	#6
Davairus Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 159	The problem with opinions is everybody's got one. Have you tried the mud reviews? There's a lot of reviews written for those games, right.. that'll help you build up an impression better than this thread will. At least, for the other two. CF: MM: Medievia: Also, AR is a diku derivative you might like if you appreciated these kind of games. Totally free of course. Happy MUD hunting.

02-26-2006, 07:29 AM	#7
Baram Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seoul Home MUD: Tears of Polaris Posts: 218	Which means you are derrived from MERC, and therefore still bound by the lincence that you don't follow. Facts still stand.

02-26-2006, 08:34 AM	#8
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Nothing broken about it - it works perfectly fine, and is considerably better written than the Medievia code was the last time I reviewed it. However that still doesn't change the fact that you are a Merc derivative. The fact that you've managed to get away with violating someone else's licence doesn't change the fact that you're breaking the law. Since February 1993, you mean. Merc wasn't even released until 18th December 1992.

02-26-2006, 09:44 AM	#9
Kallekins Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 48	My honest opinion is that if you are playing all the IRE muds (that is what 3 or 4?) and looking to add another, anything will be too complicated. I think you should pick one mud, learn it thoroughly, and get into it no matter how complicated. (Also pick just one alt, but that's another debate).

02-26-2006, 10:15 AM	#10
lovechiefs Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 71	Well guys,I played Materia and Medievia for a little bit and from the little I have seen,I have to say that Carrion Fields is by all means superior to them. As such,I guess I will have to grind it out in Carrion Fields

02-26-2006, 04:13 PM	#11
Valg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	1) Don't mind Soleil. She makes a living off of stolen goods, doesn't even bother to credit the original authors, and thus has to pretend that the concept of derivative software is beyond her. I've enclosed the US Patent Office's take on it below, in case anyone is curious. 2) As for CF, we draw a mix of players who prioritize PK and RP differently. We enforce standards for RP, but some people do play a simple role, and basically RP enough to stay within the rules and not break anyone's immersion. We also draw people who try to avoid PK like it was the plague, but will happily help run multi-hour RP sessions in places like the Inn of the Eternal Star. (They are nonetheless "in the PK system" in the sense that someone could attempt to barge into the Inn and start a ruckus, though the bouncers might have something to say about that.) "A derivative work is a work "based upon" one or more preexisting works. A derivative work is created when one or more preexisting works is "recast, transformed, or adapted" into a new work, such as when a novel is used as the basis of a movie or when a drawing is transformed into a sculpture. Translations, musical arrangements and abridgments are types of derivative works. The Copyright Act makes clear that the subject matter of copyright specified in Section 102 (literary works, musical works, sound recordings, etc.) includes compilations and derivative works. The copyright in a derivative work or compilation, however, extends only to the contribution of the author of the derivative work or compilation (the compiler), and does not affect the copyright protection granted to the preexisting material. Protection for an individual musical work, for instance, is not reduced, enlarged, shortened or extended if the work is included in a collection, such as a medley of songs... A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work.'" Actually, if someone is willing, it might be happy to have a well-organized "simple facts about derivative works" thread, where we could post various legal definitions. This way, when Soleil's boss cracks the whip and she's forced to put on her tired-ass "Derivative? Who, us?" charade, we can just point her there instead of wasting time typing it out again. It would also be handy for newer, responsible admins who are interested in making sure their game does not violate their licenses.

02-27-2006, 02:32 PM	#12
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	If this thread is going to degenerate into the usual name-calling and flaming against Soleil (or anyone else), I'm going to start moderating. --matt

02-27-2006, 02:36 PM	#13
Clifton New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9	Good luck with it. If you find you get bored or tired, check out the mud I play.

02-27-2006, 04:10 PM	#14
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

02-27-2006, 04:51 PM	#15
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Maybe they just wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt? I mean, it's only really naive from the perspective of someone who knows your reputation. Either way, it's certainly nicer than automatically assuming that someone is knowingly violating the Diku licence. While I've certainly encountered people with the same attitude as you over the years, I've also encountered those who honestly didn't seem to realise what they were doing was wrong, and were more than happy to correct the issue once it was explained to them.

02-27-2006, 05:56 PM	#16
Drealoth Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Japan Posts: 74	So let's look at a little comparison someone made. Of course, this is all just coincidence. And Soleil, I forget so can you remind me, umm, why is Medievia banned from TopMudSites again?

02-27-2006, 07:14 PM	#17
Valg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	Logos, The original poster wrote: I have read that both of those muds were caught cheating. I don't like cheating, however, I am willing to give them a fair chance. Would you guys please give me your honest opinions on Carrion Fields,Materia Magica and Medievia? Given that the forum is "the place to post about anything", and given that the original poster asked about both ethical issues and Medievia, why is a discussion about Medievia's lack of credit to the MUD they are derived from forbidden? If Soleil is allowed to slam the Merc authors for producing "28,000 lines of broken code", other people pointing out that it made her financial living possible seems fair. Part of the crux of the Medievia debate is precisely that they don't give credit for the intellectual property they exploit. Plagiarism is a topic of broad interest to the community. Heavy-handed suppression of that discussion is less than appropriate.

02-28-2006, 07:02 AM	#18
Davairus Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 159	The cases "Soleil" and "anyone" clearly refer to ad hominem attacks upon people, a rule which is in place at many forums all over the world. Here's a nice diagram to explain why this is: Unfortunately here is Orion_Elder's official "Laws of the Tavern" thread, which seems to forbid only foul language and spam: The only criticism I can see valid for the_logos here is that the board doesn't seem to forbid in any way what people were doing, although I think his request for everyone to stop flaming other people is completely reasonable. Now this: Would be the exact kind of thing I am referring to.

02-28-2006, 11:35 AM	#19
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Yes, the original poster asked for opinions on Medievia, not for opinions on Soleil. It'd be nice if certain posters here could recognize the difference between attacking an idea or a product, and attacking a person. Attack Medievia all you want, but let's leave the ad hominem attacks out of it unless the original poster in a thread asked for those. Every time Medievia is mentioned, one doesn't have to go on the warpath against all and sundry. --matt

02-28-2006, 04:04 PM	#20
Aarn Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 44	Quoting the logos: I'm sorry, this doesn't make much sense. The original poster asked about cheating specifically, Soliel said "We don't cheat!" and Valg replied with pretty simple evidence for why Soliel and her mud are cheating the license agreement. He talked about Medievia and one of the people who run Medievia. The two seem patently related to each other, and very much relevant to the original post. He asked, and I quote, for "honest opinions", on an open forum. If anyone is taking this off-topic it's the_logos. I suppose I shouldn't encourage him, but I had to point this out.

Tavern of the Blue Hand

MUD recommendations