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Old 09-16-2003, 11:52 AM   #61
visko
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Thanks, welcor. That was actually the 2nd page I pulled up after I'd gotten to the original home page, but it's definitely more direct.

Btw, I think we can all agree that don't nobody like Bush. As for the rest of it...I spent 10 months in locations 2000 miles apart from each other, and I've heard a LOT of differing opinions here. Combine that with an inability to quote history without going crosseyed, and I think we've gone off topic and off coherence. Back to tcpa....KILL! BILLY FOUR-EYES MUST DIE! A lot more than Bush, btw.

-Visko
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:57 PM   #62
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JilesDM:
Conceded- you did not state that the US role in starting/continuing the war were justifiable.

You can't give away what you don't own- I believe that the Filipinos had (and have) the same rights that residents of the US did circa 1776: self-determination.

Conceded.

If you agree that the US has previously engaged in UNJUSTIFIED military actions for her own political/economic gain but are arguing solely that the US is probably clear on the formal UN definitions of "war of aggression" , I don't care to argue (though certain conflicts, like my examples and the War of 1812, are certainly skirting the edge at least).

Such agreement would, however, seem to cut the legs out from under your original point, which seemed (to me, anyway) to be a statement that this was the first time the US had ever marched off to war without just cause. If I have misunderstood your point, I apologize, but I doubt I was alone.

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Old 09-16-2003, 02:06 PM   #63
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Whoever thinks that the great 'ole USA has never started a war of aggression prior to iraq is wrooooooong.
Here are just a few off the top of my head, Jiles.

China (1945-49)
USA intervened in a civil war, on side of Chiang Kai-Shek, against Mao's liberation struggle. USA defeated japanese soldiers to fight against the chinese people.

Greece (1947-49)
USA military supports Greek neo-fascists, against the major Greek left-wing parties who were fighting for independance. The neo-fascists won and set up a brutal regime, with the help of the American CIA.

Phillipines (1945-53)
US fought the left-wing Huks forces, while the Huks were still fighting the Japanese invaders. Huks were defeated and the US installed puppet governments, culminating in the dictatorship of Fernando Marcos.

South Korea (1945-53)
US military suppresses popular independance movement in favor of a corrupt, reactionary and brutal regime whose leaders had collaborated with the Japanese fascists.

Iran (1953)
Progressive and popular Prime Minister Mossadegh nationalised the British oil company which controlled Iran's oil. A US and British backed coup against him re-installed the brutal Shah of Iran. He privatised Iran's oil, British and American oil companies both getting equal shares.

Guatemala (1953)
A CIA organized coup ousted a progressive, democratically-elected government which had nationalised the US United Fruit Company. So began 40 years of death-squads, torture, dissapearances and mass executions, killing over 100,000 civilians.

and those are just a few off the top of my head that I know. I can name at least 20 more, Jiles. You think Iraq was the only one? How about the ones above? And if that doesn't quench your belief here are some more.

Vietnam, Cambodia, Congo, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Indonesia, Chile, East Timor, Nicaragua, Grenada, Libya, Panama, Afghanistan... and there are more I am sure, if I looked them up I would find more.

-Delerak
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:18 PM   #64
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Could someone move this? The thread was about something I find important for action; at the moment, we have nitpicking in a scholarly debate with a bunch of children who can't decide which page to trust from their last google search.

I was trying to get the word out about a serious threat to the computer world as you all know it, and now I get USA-flaming. Frankly, I agree with a lot of what both sides have to say, but THIS IS NOT THE THREAD FOR IT.

Move somewhere else.

-Visko
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:21 PM   #65
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Funny thing that as far off topic as this thread has gotten, they way the different subjects are address is remarkable similar.

That or a few right off of .  For future reference if you want to look for information on the history and goals of the US in wartime I would suggest not turning to a communist parties' webpage.

As for the tcpa doomsday prophets, tcpa can be an extremely valuable tool in today's world.  The problem is that most people including Ross Anderson like to lump DRM and TCPA all together, it is much easier to frighten everyone that way.  You may want to check out IBM's rebuttal to the various "FAQs" that are out there and then make your descion based on who you believe most.

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Old 09-16-2003, 04:47 PM   #66
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Agreed. Looking back at my original post, I realize that I probably should have pointed out this distinction explicitly.

Re: Delerak.

Go back, reread the definition of a war of aggression. Notice how your concept of a war of aggression is obviously different from mine (and the UNs). There's nothing to debate.

Re: Tavish.

That's true. A TCP, as an abstract concept, is simply a way for a aremote user to build a secure chain of trust on a machine that should (in principle) be impervious to compromise. This is great for distributed/grid WANs such as SETI@home, and will probably allow for a proliferation of cooperative networks (e.g., public distributed compile farms, which would otherwise be subject to attacks by member nodes with cracked clients).

It is, however, a double-edged sword, and I'm not convinced that it's necessary or even desirable for home boxes.
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:53 PM   #67
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I'm not going to start an arguement on communism. There is nothing wrong with communism. It is a good system but looking to the past you can see that no leader has gotten it right, and most of them were tyrants anyways. Still, people die everyday in America just like in any communist country, so maybe you should question it - question everything.

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Old 09-17-2003, 01:07 AM   #68
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Yes, question everything, including your questioning of everything and it's content/results. It's fun!
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Old 09-17-2003, 02:41 PM   #69
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Thanks for the link, Tavish. I went and read up...

The arguments rebutting the initial demonizing of TCPA seem to be legitimate, but the concerns raised by the current TCPA demagogues are still valid; just how far is the Fritz chip going to go, if not in the next 2 years, then in the next 10? If I can be assured of complete control over my system(s) for the rest of my life, I'll shut up and let the technology come; in its current form, it seems benign enough.

However, if I can't even decide what comes in and out of my computer sitting at the console, I won't put up with the technology involved. Making expendable RSA keys on the fly is all well and good; but I'm not interested in having those be created for me and used to allow or block information I was not aware of.

The issue is still dangerous, in my mind. But with the information gained from Tavish's link, and a recent announcement at the IDF that Grantsdale, the TCPA-standard chip, will be an optional component to new microprocessors and chipsets, has me less worried. Still, I would urge people in this community to keep tabs on the debate; we don't want "well-intentioned" fools creating an intolerable situation for us behind our backs.

-Visko
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Old 09-17-2003, 03:13 PM   #70
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I agree completely with you Visko and people should absolutely keep up on this issue.  It is just unfortunate that TCPA was lumped in with the DRM.  I have already sent several letters to the local politicians about my many concerns over Palladium and the restrictions it will place on users.  I'm glad you did look over the IBM link, much like you stated "we don't want "well-intentioned" fools creating an intolerable situation for us behind our backs."  we also dont want "well-intentioned" fools spreading FUD behind our backs.
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Old 09-17-2003, 05:14 PM   #71
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I'm sure everyone appreciates this, we have enough off-topic tangents backed by BS as it is.  The only reason I even mentioned communism is because the points you had brought up "off the top of your head" were the exact same as those listed at the cpa.org site (and no that's not cpa as in accounting).  If that is just a bizarre coincidence then by all means disregard my point, if not then that is an extremely biased place to look for information.
If you would like I can give you other reasons for each of those occurances that has little to do with the evil capitalist ways of the US.  I'm guessing by now that most people could really care less about this debate so I'll save them the reading.
Exactly my point.  If you have information about TCPA and it comes from a site called againsttcpa I wouldn't rely on it as being unbiased.  If you have information about US war dealings and it comes from the Communist Party of Australia I would certainly question their interpretations.
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Old 09-18-2003, 04:50 AM   #72
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Having studied the links Tavish presented, I've come up with a question:

Shouldn't this thread be about fighting the DRM and Palladium instead ?

After all, if you look at the points brought forth on both sides it seems this is what's really the problem; Microsoft (et al.) trying to make a computer system that can only run certified products. Which would be a significant threat to OSS and the mudding community (as well as the rest of the world...).
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Old 09-18-2003, 05:25 AM   #73
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Yes, and I raised that issue and except for what appears to be most people being misinformed, they're mainly against:
* Being forced to have something in their computer
* Palladium (now called NGSCB, but that's just such a mouthful)
* DRM

Me? I'm 110% for Palladium. Why? Because it completely screws microsoft over. It'll be microsoft's downfall. Most people will move over to alternatives without DRM built into it (Mac, Linux)
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Old 09-18-2003, 05:44 AM   #74
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The association between DRM and a TCP is, in my opinion, justified. The latter is essential to the effective implementation of the former. Though they are orthogonal concepts, when the one arrives, the other will inevitably follow. Microsoft simply made the mistake of trying to turn that fact into a selling point for their particular implementation of a TCP.
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