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Old 01-21-2003, 05:40 AM   #1
Rawcliffe
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After being a member of these boards for quite few months now, mainly reading for RP ideas, I have to ask why alot of the free muds are so angry when it comes to P2P games. I understand many of you have woderful communites/games and you would like to recruit new members to come and join you. As a player of a P2P game I dont come here to try and wrangle people for money, but instead share my great experiences I have had in my game. Yes the game I play cost money unfortunately, but after playing quite a few games over the years I would quickly pay it becuase its the game that suits me best. It has everything that I care for. Maybe I just misunderstand the purpose of this board, but for me I thought it was a place to introduce and discuss the games we all know and love. All well, those wer my thoughts take them as you will.

Player of an evil P2P mud
Jerry
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Old 01-21-2003, 08:17 AM   #2
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Good to hear from you, Rawcliffe

I think that most people here don't consider p2p games 'evi', but I do know that some of them wish that the p2p muds had a little icon or '$' in their ranking listing -- a topic that has been beaten to death previously on another thread.

I would be interested in hearing you share your good experiences on any game (whether p2p or free), as well as your reasons why 'it is the game that suits you best'.

I'm sure there are more than a few mud admins out there who'd appreciate knowing what holds you to your game.
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Old 01-21-2003, 11:29 AM   #3
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The issue at hand here is that the P2P games try, in some cases, to 'hide' themselves as a free game long enough to grab a few players and get them hooked long enough that they can do the old 'Oops, we forgot there IS a SMALL $10 monthly fee to keep playing... but for all the fun you had, isn't it worth that PIDDLY amount of money?'

First, if it's so "PIDDLY" then why do they care if they get paid? If $10 is so "SMALL" to them, why don't they just pay for me to play instead.

But, aside from that, the main issue I've seen, and that I take issue with (and I don't even have a MUD listed anymore)... is that these P2P games are essentially stealing advertising. Being a P2P they can afford advertising. Most free MUDs by and large can not afford to go out and pay to advertise a free game. So, they look upon bastions in the community like Top MUD Sites, to notify the world they exist. But, then the P2P games jump in, knock off a few extra slots on the list, try to pretend they're not a P2P game with careful wording (payment to advance is still P2P, whether it's required or not), and take off some of the few places that could have been used to get a couple of one vote MUDs listed in the 80-100 section.

But, essentially, that's why some are bitter. Those free MUDs that can't afford to pay for advertising are losing ranking positions to MUDs that could easily advertise elsewhere.
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Old 01-21-2003, 12:25 PM   #4
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I guess I just had a misconception of the purpose of this board then.  When I discovered it I thought it to be an open forum for MUDs in general.  A place to see different games available, learn some basics, give designers a place to change it up and share thoughts and experiences.  Instead, there seems to be more of Im better than you or I can believe your Mud does that.....

In my opinion, people are not idiots.  If they dont want to pay for a game, they wont.  At least in the case of my game its no big secret that its P2P.  I wouldnt care how it got signfied that its P2P.  If somebody wants to play a free game, I dont think it makes a difference if BIG (which my game is not all that big) games are listed as #1 because they wont play them and continue down the list to the games that got bumped down a few notches.  As for the games that are listed  in 81-100 range, if they truly care to utilize the ranking system to stay on the boards for advertizing reasons it only takes 2 daily voters to achieve a <50 ranking.

On a side note, this battle seems to heat up so much sometimes I believe many of those in the arguments are causing more damage to their ability to recruit new players through their words of hate that they lose to being a rank below a P2P game.

In short, I believe players will just as quickly join a free game with our without P2Ps being ranked among them if that is what they are looking for.  If paying for a game doesnt matter to a player then the the ranking system wouldnt hinge on this matter anyway.

I will not post again on this topic, but I will read your thoughts and concerns.  I just wanted what others though and to give my own opinion without trying to start a big argument on the whole thing.  This a great tool for Mud players for many reasons other than the ranking system.

And I rest my conversation on this topic.

A player,
Jerry
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Old 01-21-2003, 12:27 PM   #5
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And Wow I forgot about that cool lil pic I have for my Icon. I need to snag it and take it to the IC boards of my game. Seeing I play a ruby dragon.

The Ruby,
Rawcliffe
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Old 01-21-2003, 02:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ Jan. 21 2003,11:29)
The issue at hand here is that the P2P games try, in some cases, to 'hide' themselves as a free game long enough to grab a few players and get them hooked long enough that they can do the old 'Oops, we forgot there IS a SMALL $10 monthly fee to keep playing... but for all the fun you had, isn't it worth that PIDDLY amount of money?'
Speaking as a game that uses a shareware method of payment, I can add a bit of insight here. I should mention, however, that you cannot even create a character on Threshold without having the system of payment explained in great detail.

You have to keep in mind that anyone charging money in ANY WAY on the internet, be it a game, website, or even software, is still fighting an uphill battle against the huge amount of people who think everything on the internet should be free. This is very unfair to people who invest enormous amounts of money and professional levels of time and committment (not hobby levels) to the product or service they are making available.

On usenet this week, in one of the general RPG discussion groups, there was even a huge debate as to whether or not it was ridiculous and absurd that MMORPGs charge a monthly fee. There are still A LOT of people who do not even understand that server farms, tons of bandwidth, advertising, and staff to produce new content and provide customer service cost a great deal of money.

So while you make some good points, I think you should also keep the above in mind.

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Originally Posted by
First, if it's so "PIDDLY" then why do they care if they get paid?
I am sure you would not make such tongue-in-cheek statements if the suggestion was that every now and then your boss/employer/clients/etc. simply not pay you.
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Old 01-21-2003, 02:22 PM   #7
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I have no problem with pay muds, as long as they mention they're pay muds somewhere on the page.

They're easy to bypass by having a look at their webpage anyhow.
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Old 01-21-2003, 03:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Speaking as a game that uses a shareware method of payment, I can add a bit of insight here. I should mention, however, that you cannot even create a character on Threshold without having the system of payment explained in great detail.
That's nice. Is it mentioned in your listing here on TMS? What about your MUD's info link? Didn't think so. You are as bad as the rest of them. You lure them in enough to get them in the doors, when more than likely many of the people lured in would bypass you outright.

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Originally Posted by
You have to keep in mind that anyone charging money in ANY WAY on the internet, be it a game, website, or even software, is still fighting an uphill battle against the huge amount of people who think everything on the internet should be free. This is very unfair to people who invest enormous amounts of money and professional levels of time and committment (not hobby levels) to the product or service they are making available.
You POOR babies. Rest your head on momma's shoulder. In case it's not obvious, you have no sympathy from me. YOU decided to make a product on the net. If it's hard work, that's YOUR problem. No one else's. Sorry, but how many of us have run free games. No charges what so ever... even voluntary ones? You expect to make money. We don't. In general, we can't afford to pay for advertising. If you run a pay MUD and can't afford to fork out a little for advertising, you're in the wrong business... that or you have no confidence in your product. So, instead you come out and steal advertising from free MUDs who need it. Right. You deserve SO much pity. Poor you.

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Originally Posted by
On usenet this week, in one of the general RPG discussion groups, there was even a huge debate as to whether or not it was ridiculous and absurd that MMORPGs charge a monthly fee. There are still A LOT of people who do not even understand that server farms, tons of bandwidth, advertising, and staff to produce new content and provide customer service cost a great deal of money.
Yes. We should go out and pay $60 for the software to run the game, then pay $10 more per month to play it. Yeah. That's reasonable. Please, note the pouring sarcasm. At least in this respect P2P MUDs are better than games like Everquest, as the ability to log into them is free. I also don't define any MUDs as MMORPGs as I doubt any MUD has the type of playerbase that something like Everquest has. But, this is a fairly useless point. Because advertising... well, you're getting that for free off of your TMS ranking. *smirks* Many of these P2P games, from what I've heard, also run on a volunteer staff. So, no cost there, either... if you pay your staff, good for you.

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Originally Posted by
I am sure you would not make such tongue-in-cheek statements if the suggestion was that every now and then your boss/employer/clients/etc. simply not pay you.
Your example is flawed. We're talking company to client relations, not company to employee relations. Furthermore, to make your example more accurate it should be "I am sure you would not make such tongue-in-cheek statements if the suggestion was that every now and then you decided your boss/employer/clients/etc. didn't have to pay you." Which, btw... I have on occasion overlooked costs owed to me by clients. Next, most places try to downplay the cost as a minimal cost... if the cost is so minimal, you shouldn't worry about whether or not you get paid.
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Old 01-21-2003, 03:05 PM   #9
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Just to hilight one or two of Orion's points and clarify: I don't think people are opposed to paymuds in general here, I think they're opposed to paymuds dominating the rankings.

These rankings are a great way for free muds to advertise, since they most likely cannot afford the $100++ it takes to advertise on mudconnector or with banners here on topmudsites. They are probably already paying out of pocket for hosting, so any free advertising is much appreciated.

When p2p muds take up many of the top spots, I think the general feeling is, why don't they just stick up a banner instead of urging their players to vote all the time.

Having served as a senior admin on a free mud, I can't say strongly enough how difficult it is to attract players without any money to work with
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Old 01-21-2003, 05:05 PM   #10
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Alright guys ... I'm generally a nice gal, but I'm having a teeny bit of problem with being slapped in the face repeatedly.

Let me clarify a couple of things for you again.

The pay games, by and large serve more users than all the other MUDs in the top 20 put together. Yet we are sending our users HERE to this site to vote, where they are exposed to countless FREE opportunities for them to play.

I have no doubt that we double (or more) the traffic that would come here if this site were reserved for free muds only.

We're helping you FAR more than we are harming you.

Second, not all commercial MUDs have the same policies. Some of us our PROUD of the fact that we are a commercial success, and have no problem being explicit that our games are pay to play.

Making us out to all be the same, is about as fair as me thinking that everyone on this board is an immature jerk, because a couple people here don't know how to communicate in a constructive manner.

What we SHOULD be doing here is forming a community of people who would like to improve the overall state of text-based games ... reaching out to those who currently can't see past the graphical games enough to recognize that a text-game is a far greater quality of experience ... and that the brain is the most powerful 3D engine out there.

Frankly, I was highly disappointed when I came to these boards months ago. When I think of all the things we could achieve together, it makes me sad to realize that they will never happen.

Melissa
Producer, GemStone III (who probably shouldn't be posting this.)
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Old 01-21-2003, 05:31 PM   #11
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Melissa, what grabbed my attention in your post was the hope that we might be able to form some sort of community support to further the success of text-based games. As a father of 2 boys, I do everything that I can to encourage reading. The fact that most kids today have the attention span of a gnat is understated. I think free MUDs get the attention of the kids just because they are kids and have no funds to upgrade to the p2p gaming. Free MUDs provide an entry level for the younger MUDders, where p2p MUDs create the commercial viability that is required on the 'net for anything to continue for any duration of time. I believe you are correct that most p2p MUDs bring more viewers here with the opportunity to check out free MUDs than any other source, but I still get a creepy feeling with some of these MUDs who use less-than-ethical practices to increase their profit margin a small bit. It appears to me that the more successful a p2p MUD is, the more ethical their advertising and payment practices.

Melissa, I think you should not give up the hope of a MUD community that will band together in the hope to introduce today's youth to text-based gaming. It will happen. The reason is that it does not matter if a MUD is p2p or free, there will always be those who use shortcuts to find their own version of success, just as there is in real life, but there is always those who will put a cause before profit, and I know there are at least a few left out there.
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Old 01-21-2003, 06:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
MelissaMeyer,Jan. 21 2003,175]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
We're helping you FAR more than we are harming you.
While there is no doubt more traffic comes here because of your MUD, there is simply no evidence that it helps any free mud at all.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Second, not all commercial MUDs have the same policies.  Some of us our PROUD of the fact that we are a commercial success, and have no problem being explicit that our games are pay to play.
If what people are saying doesn't apply to you then why are you complaining about it?

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Originally Posted by
Making us out to all be the same, is about as fair as me thinking that everyone on this board is an immature jerk, because a couple people here don't know how to communicate in a constructive manner.
If you can recognize that not everyone is an "immature jerk," why can't you recognize that not everyone makes you all out to be the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
What we SHOULD be doing here is forming a community of people who would like to improve the overall state of text-based games ... reaching out to those who currently can't see past the graphical games enough to recognize that a text-game is a far greater quality of experience ... and that the brain is the most powerful 3D engine out there.
I thought we were a community already.  However, I have been informed by p2p adminstrators that this is merely a banner exchange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frankly, I was highly disappointed when I came to these boards months ago.  When I think of all the things we could achieve together, it makes me sad to realize that they will never happen.
And what has prevented you from starting threads that discuss these issues?  Maybe I don't pay as much attention to TMS as I used to, but I can't recall any p2p adminstrator bringing up a such a thread.

Quote:
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Melissa
Producer, GemStone III (who probably shouldn't be posting this
I, too, agree that you shouldn't be posting this hypocrital trite.
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Old 01-21-2003, 06:23 PM   #13
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Melissa the people you send to these boards are not averse to playing a P2P MUD. Many of them work on a false belief that just because a MUD is a P2P that it MUST be better. I have spoken to a number of people who have stated that since the P2P MUDs took to listing here, the free MUDs have noticed a decline in incoming players. Many of the people who play free MUDs are, however, not prescribed to the bias that just because a MUD is free it must be better. I won't debate whether free or pay is better, as that's just looking to get a flamewar started... I'm merely pointing out the false beliefs many seem to hold.

Now, no one has said P2P MUDs shouldn't list here. If I gave you that impression, I apologize. To be honest, I don't like P2P MUDs advertising using the ranking list, because it takes away one of the few free advertising venues that free MUDs have available to them, however I can tolerate P2P MUDs being on it. What I do NOT want to tolerate is the asinine attempts to grab a few more players by not being upfront and honest about costs.

If you don't want people to repeatedly 'slap you in the face.' You should be upfront (on your ranking list entry) about your MUD being a P2P. But, you don't do that. You, however, do have it listed in your information listing which I must admit is a good bit more than some of the others have done, so my hat's off to you on that point.

So, to recap... P2P not necessarily bad. P2P advertising on one of few free advertising venues around not nice but, not really bad. P2P advertising using underhanded practices on said free venues reason for free MUD supporters to be angry. Hope that helps.
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:24 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
But, aside from that, the main issue I've seen, and that I take issue with (and I don't even have a MUD listed anymore)... is that these P2P games are essentially stealing advertising. Being a P2P they can afford advertising. Most free MUDs by and large can not afford to go out and pay to advertise a free game.
I don't think it's "stealing" advertising when a game that can afford a banner ad chooses to list their mud in the ranking. How does the ability to pay for something in any way constitute theft when a free alternative is chosen? I don't think it's stealing any more than a free mud listing themselves in a P2P mud's place is stealing.
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:52 PM   #15
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*sigh* When one 'steals' a base in baseball, does anyone 'own' that base? No, the base is occupied by someone, though. When the runner takes that base it has then been stolen. That is the usage I was intending, and I think it was fairly clear.

This, however, will only serve to deviate the topic of the thread. If you want to take further issue with my usage of the word stealing, feel free to PM me, and we can avoid starting a dictionary flamewar.
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Old 01-21-2003, 08:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
*sigh* When one 'steals' a base in baseball, does anyone 'own' that base? No, the base is occupied by someone, though. When the runner takes that base it has then been stolen. That is the usage I was intending, and I think it was fairly clear.
Yeah, when I think "stealing" I immediately think baseball... =P

So we understand that the main issue you're concerned with is that P2P muds occupy advertising spaces. But I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. The second statement of my reply to your post is the question, "How does the ability to pay for something in any way constitute theft when a free alternative is chosen?" I want to know why the ability to pay for something matters in this occupation of the list. Obviously it is important; you did say it was the main issue.
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Old 01-21-2003, 08:51 PM   #17
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I already covered that. But, to restate it:

Most people who run free MUDs can not AFFORD to pay for advertising, since they already pay for their net connection, most pay for hosting, as well. They do not expect a return from their efforts to provide a free entertainment to people. By taking spots in one of the few free advertising venues provided for MUDding, you are essentially stealing that space from them.

You may not see anything wrong with something that equates to stealing bread from the hungry. I, however, do.
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Old 01-21-2003, 09:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Most people who run free MUDs can not AFFORD to pay for advertising...By taking spots in one of the few free advertising venues provided for MUDding, you are essentially stealing that space from them.
This is the logic you use to take issue with P2P muds here:
1) They run a P2P mud and,
2) They can afford to pay for advertising and,
3) They occupy a slot in the list therefore,
You take issue with their listing.

However, if I change but one portion of the equation:
1) I run a free mud and,
2) I can AFFORD to pay advertising and,
3) I occupied a slot in the list therefore,
Do you take issue with my listing?

If you would take issue with my listing, then your standards aren't practically applicable: We wouldn't be able to differentiate between those who can really afford to purchase advertisements and those who are genuinely strapped for cash.

If you would not take issue with my listing, then this point is irrelevant and your main issue is thus unjustified -- unless you provide some more explanation. In this case, we would want to know what attribute of P2P muds justifies the thing you take issue with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ bar)
You may not see anything wrong with something that equates to stealing bread from the hungry. I, however, do.
Why do you believe that free muds are somehow entitled to free advertising?
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Old 01-21-2003, 09:30 PM   #19
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Orion, you made a NUMBER of very inaccurate statements bordering on (if not crossing way over the line of) ridiculousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion Elder wrote:
That's nice. Is it mentioned in your listing here on TMS? What about your MUD's info link? Didn't think so. You are as bad as the rest of them. You lure them in enough to get them in the doors, when more than likely many of the people lured in would bypass you outright.
Firstly, and most importantly, you cannot even MAKE a character or get INSIDE the game of Threshold without being forced to read *DETAILED* files that explain our system explicitly. Furthermore, you can play the game for 100-200 hours before you are required to register (as I said, we operate by a shareware model) and there are no recurring fees (i.e. no monthly or annual fees).

Secondly, on our web site: http://www.threshold-rpg.com/register.html.

We do not have a full time webmaster as our company is very small. Thus, we keep our most up-to-date information ON THE GAME rather than on the web site. That is why the web site directs you to specific help files in the game.

So in conclusion, there is NOTHING hidden from people at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion Elder wrote:
If you run a pay MUD and can't afford to fork out a little for advertising, you're in the wrong business...

So, instead you come out and steal advertising from free MUDs who need it.
Excuse me? Refresh the page a few times. See that Threshold banner ad? I have been purchasing advertising here for over 2 years. I believe I am one of the longest continual advertisers here. It is because of people who PAY for advertising here that this web site exists AT ALL.

So do not say I am stealing advertising. Furthermore, nobody is "stealing" advertising. The very use of such an absurd term makes you sound like an irrational zealot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by
I wrote:

On usenet this week, in one of the general RPG discussion groups, there was even a huge debate as to whether or not it was ridiculous and absurd that MMORPGs charge a monthly fee. There are still A LOT of people who do not even understand that server farms, tons of bandwidth, advertising, and staff to produce new content and provide customer service cost a great deal of money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion Elder wrote:
Yes. We should go out and pay $60 for the software to run the game, then pay $10 more per month to play it. Yeah. That's reasonable. Please, note the pouring sarcasm.
Wow. It sounds like you are just as uneducated as the people I was referring to in those usenet posts. Honestly, I expected much better understanding of the gaming industry from people on the forums here.

The typical MMORPG spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year on servers and bandwidth, and that is nothing compared to the labor costs of having large full time staffs to create new content, artwork, animations, sound, music, etc. That is why those games have a monthly fee.

What is unreasonable about people expecting to be paid for their JOBS??



Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion Elder wrote:
Your example is flawed. We're talking company to client relations, not company to employee relations.  
It is not flawed, you just don't like it because it is so apt.

You think it is unreasonable for people to be paid for their work.

So I put it in terms that were more personal for you. I highly doubt you would find it reasonable if you were expected to show up for work every day and never get paid.

This sounds like another "everything on the internet should be free" piles of BS. It is a shame that such crap still pollutes the internet, but at least it is dwindling.

People who expect others to work for free to entertain them are really no better that software pirates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion Elder wrote:
You may not see anything wrong with something that equates to stealing bread from the hungry. I, however, do.
Oh give me a break!!!!!!

The name of the web site is not "Top Free Mud Sites." If it weren't for people able to PURCHASE advertising here the site would not even exist. Furthermore, the games with some sort of payment or donation system are the ones driving enough traffic here for the site to even have any value to advertisers.

The fact that you feel you are ENTITLED to free advertising is ridiculous. It is just further evidence that you feel someone else should GIVE, GIVE, GIVE to you and you should never have to give anything back in return.

That degree of selfishness is DISGUSTING.
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Old 01-21-2003, 10:58 PM   #20
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Unifex:
Pay MUDs make their money through the MUD. Free MUDs do not. If a free MUD's admin can come up with the money to advertise their MUD, that's great for them. Most free MUDs are not businesses, though.

I can not, and I will not, make accountings for whether they personally can afford to pay for advertising. That has nothing to do with the fact that they're running a MUD that is free to the public and they are losing advertising space to MUDs that are, essentially, getting more money for free by taking a space one of those free MUDs could use.


Threshold:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion, you made a NUMBER of very inaccurate statements bordering on (if not crossing way over the line of) ridiculousness.
Please note. Threshold meant to put his own name at the beginning of this post, but his fingers were moving too fast for his head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Firstly, and most importantly, you cannot even MAKE a character or get INSIDE the game of Threshold without being forced to read *DETAILED* files that explain our system explicitly. Furthermore, you can play the game for 100-200 hours before you are required to register (as I said, we operate by a shareware model) and there are no recurring fees (i.e. no monthly or annual fees).

Secondly, on our web site: http://www.threshold-rpg.com/register.html.

We do not have a full time webmaster as our company is very small. Thus, we keep our most up-to-date information ON THE GAME rather than on the web site. That is why the web site directs you to specific help files in the game.

So in conclusion, there is NOTHING hidden from people at all.
That's nice. Is it on your MUD's ranking listing or in your MUD's information listing? Didn't think so. You essentially ignored what I said, and then proceeded to attack something on the other side of the planet from it like a rabid dog on a piece of raw meat, coated in kibble, cheese, and bacon.

Now, I'm going to assume the fact that you take payments doesn't change on a regular basis. If so, pain me red in the face. But, working on that assumption ... well, if you need a full-time webmaster to do that... can I please come work for you? In case it wasn't clear, I was making fun of the fact that you make it seem like it takes a full-time webmaster to keep it up to date that you take payments for playing your MUD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Excuse me? Refresh the page a few times. See that Threshold banner ad? I have been purchasing advertising here for over 2 years. I believe I am one of the longest continual advertisers here. It is because of people who PAY for advertising here that this web site exists AT ALL.
That's great. You can obviously afford to pay for advertising. So, why do you need to be listed in the ranking list as well? Hrm? That was my point, and you just proved it for me. Thanks a billion, pal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
So do not say I am stealing advertising. Furthermore, nobody is "stealing" advertising. The very use of such an absurd term makes you sound like an irrational zealot.
Uh huh. Ok. If it makes you feel better you are in my opinion being immoral and taking advertising from those who need it, which in my opinion equates to stealing bread from the hungry. That better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wow. It sounds like you are just as uneducated as the people I was referring to in those usenet posts. Honestly, I expected much better understanding of the gaming industry from people on the forums here.

The typical MMORPG spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year on servers and bandwidth, and that is nothing compared to the labor costs of having large full time staffs to create new content, artwork, animations, sound, music, etc. That is why those games have a monthly fee.

What is unreasonable about people expecting to be paid for their JOBS??
Wow. You're just as dumb as everyone makes you out to be. I didn't quite believe that was possible. I just made note of the paying $60 for the ability to connect and being expected to pay $10 a month to connect (note the ability to connect is not actually connecting). I never said which of those fees should be eliminated. Personally, if it were me, I'd eliminate the cost of the software. MUCH more potential for earnings there. But, if your natural leap is to eliminate the monthly fee, maybe that implies that you have a subconscious dislike for P2P games. Just a thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
It is not flawed, you just don't like it because it is so apt.

You think it is unreasonable for people to be paid for their work.

So I put it in terms that were more personal for you. I highly doubt you would find it reasonable if you were expected to show up for work every day and never get paid.
I find it rather amusing that you ignored the part where I stated that I work for myself, and that I have simply tossed out some fees for my customers.

Furthermore, I don't think it is unreasonable to be paid for work done. I think it is asinine to make out the fees you charge to be 'almost nothing' which I never stated you've done, and I think it is asinine for a P2P MUD to take advertising space from free MUDs. See if you can grasp the concept here. P2P MUD gets money from players... and thus generally have more advertising options available to them. Free MUDs don't. Notice the difference here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
This sounds like another "everything on the internet should be free" piles of BS. It is a shame that such crap still pollutes the internet, but at least it is dwindling.
This sounds like another one of those "I run an internet business, pity me." piles of BS. It is a shame that such crap still pollutes the internet, and seems to be growing.

Edit: Just thought I would note here, as I was reading back over this, that I am not stating that running a business on the internet is bad. Doing what Threshold is doing (running an internet business, and expecting everyone to feel sorry for you because people think you shouldn't take advertising from free MUDs who generally can't afford).

Quote:
Originally Posted by
People who expect others to work for free to entertain them are really no better that software pirates.
*ROFL* That is one of the more asinine comments I've ever seen you make. People who expect a widely free entertainment field to be free are no better than people who steal software! Your examples, though entertaining, are usually wrong and lacking in any real point (unless the point is to make you look like an idiot). I will, once again, correct your example. Those who find a way to play a P2P MUD for free using not-so-legal means are software pirates.

Furthermore you sort of pollute your statement with a bad choice of terms. It not people who expect others to work for free to entertain them, it's about people who would rather play a free game than a P2P one... those may sound the same, though they are quite different. They don't expect anyone to do it, they just hope they will and are usually not disappointed. Or are you going to work on alienating your potential playerbase by insulting those who would rather play a free game than a P2P? If so, more power to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oh give me a break!!!!!!

The name of the web site is not "Top Free Mud Sites." If it weren't for people able to PURCHASE advertising here the site would not even exist. Furthermore, the games with some sort of payment or donation system are the ones driving enough traffic here for the site to even have any value to advertisers.
Ok, let's assume for a moment that you're right. Let's further assume that the people coming in are willing to leave their P2P game to play another game. So the higher ranks on the list are P2P, mainly P2P games can afford the advertising... so you just established that more than likely the P2P MUDs trade players. Wow, we should all bow down to the greatness that is the P2P God. Again, note the pouring sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The fact that you feel you are ENTITLED to free advertising is ridiculous. It is just further evidence that you feel someone else should GIVE, GIVE, GIVE to you and you should never have to give anything back in return.
I thought I made it clear that I don't have a MUD listed here. I make no money from my websites. If you want to go look, feel free... there is an advertising section on it, however there is no signup form to date, nor am I taking advertisements currently. The only advertisement on my site is the test entry I put in for Samson, who happens to be a friend of mine and pays nothing for the entry.

I provide, at that site, stories, articles, interviews, a listing of MUD hosting services, a links section for links suggested to me by MUDders, and forums for use within the community. I do not list my codebase here, nor do I list MUD-Con. Neither of which make money, just to clarify. So, to recap I run MUD Planet, a free resource to MUDders, I provide a free codebase for use by the MUDding community, I run MUD-Con, a gathering for MUDders, I moderate the Tavern of the Blue Hand forum here, I contribute to the SMAUG Mailing List, I have helped out with bug fixing the I3 code, I run the MPMF which provides bug fixes for SMAUG and Chronicles (my codebase), I am one of the founding members of Mud2Mud and help out on those forums, not to mention the fact that I have helped more than 30 MUDs get started.

So, I'm sorry I don't give back to the MUDding community. I'll try harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
That degree of selfishness is DISGUSTING.
Oh yes. It is truly loathesome, isn't it. I really don't do enough. I should be stoned. *trots off to do more in an attempt to give himself a coronary*
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