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the_logos · 03-16-2006, 02:55 PM

You double-dog dare me? Wow. Well, when you're done with recess, you may make the choice to either continue to libel us or not. Up to you.

--matt

DonathinFrye · 03-16-2006, 03:05 PM

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 03:24 PM

I know this thread is not about Medievia and that this is totally off-topic, but the thread has already gone way way off-topic so...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the 'well-documented code audits' you mention are dated 1996, right? That's 10 years ago folks. TEN YEARS. The code that is shown on that audits is NOT the code that exists today. I know I know 'once a derivative, always a derivative'. In addition, not that it matters at all at this point, but the code that was picked apart by KaVir 10 years ago was not given to anyone by the administrators of Medievia. It was in fact stolen itself. And no, we are not going to be giving out Medievia V code for audits so don't even mention it .

I just wanted to point out that the code that the 'anti-medievia' people always refers to gets older and older as each year passes. Not to mention the fact that new code is added daily and has been since that 1996 code was leaked.

The argument is old, no longer valid, and just as this thread and the other new thread about IRE points out, people just LOVE to rehash old topics over and over and over and over again. Not only that, but these topics are things that will never ever change. IRE will always be listed as 'free' and Medievia is not, and will never be, DIKU.

Asaudan · 03-16-2006, 03:58 PM

The problem is that even after those ten years you still refuse to prove your claims of originality. When you lie once, no amount of time spent ducking from the keen pitch-forks of the community's stalwart watchmen will help 'your word' tip these scales in your favour.

Face the audit or stand the rumours. It is a sorry state self-selected, but no unfair fate to any of ye, for though the tyrant be Vryce, his underlings have well copied him.

You see a man beat a very young girl, and he sees you, indeed, and grabbing the girl, flees into his manor house. Alarmed, you run back to your home town and alarm the militia, who follow you as you lead them to the offender's lands. He refuses to let any past his fortified and trapped yard, but shouts instead from a window that the girl is alright. Meanwhile, rumours spread from your home town to neighbouring lands--tales of this evil man--and there is much grinding of teeth and sewing of war-banners. A siege is laid against one border of the manor, and the angry folk sneer at the friends of the man, who still continue to trade with him despite all.

Ten years pass and the man comes out, but his look darkens as he sees that, though he still has his friends, his reputation is ruined. He repeats himself: "The girl is fine!" he says, but the crowd, watching him from behind a tremendous array of long pikes and drawn bows, shall have none of that until they see her for themselves.

Yeah, screw them.

KaVir · 03-16-2006, 04:29 PM

"In the case of "a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire," the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author's death."

"Many people have reimplemented computer programs by rewriting them to replace the source code with code of their own writing. There is no reason to believe that this would not be a copyright infringement, particularly if the reimplementer had access to the source code of the original program, even if none of the original source code remains."

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 04:42 PM

DonathinFrye · 03-16-2006, 04:58 PM

Actually, KaVir's efforts are a large part of the reason that most of the MUDing community is aware and vocal about Midievia's lack of ethics.

Another reason why people who feel strongly about the community's integrity should continually bring up issues with IRE/Matt in an effort to incite positive change for the community.

KaVir · 03-16-2006, 05:07 PM

You claimed that the argument was no longer valid because the code was 10 years old and had been changed.

I proved that you were wrong.

Asaudan · 03-16-2006, 05:12 PM

I said it less than ten years ago, the industry standard for expiration of statements.

'Aim high to hit a far mark,' said Robin o' th' Hood. Or was it 'Objects in mirror are less legal than they appear'?

My name is Legion, and also is my name Youpeople, for I am many, whose collective agenda may or may not benefit from driving you away. Not that I need to.

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 05:16 PM

True, if you define the 'mudding community' as the people who read TMS, TMC, and Mudmagic forums. In the end, the people who read this forum and the other MUD forums are a very small minority of the people who play MUDs. In Medievia alone, before we started the voting stuff, most of our players never heard of the MUD sites. Even after we have promoted TMS and TMC on the game with echos and so forth, still not many of our players care to come here and read and discuss. What I'm trying to say is that yes, this argument may deter some people from trying Medievia and has in the past I'm sure, but the audience of these sites is only one place out of many that Medievia is listed and advertised. Word of mouth is still, by far, the #1 way people hear about Medievia. On any given day, people joining the game from "Mudportal" is about 10% of our total new character creations. Of that 10% how many have read these threads and care? If they cared, why would they log in in the first place?

DonathinFrye · 03-16-2006, 05:20 PM

As MUD Advertising is largely word of mouth, so are issues with IRE and Midievia and many other things that are discussed here. People who do not post read these forums and people who do post read these forums are still affected; the discussions here enlighten people, help shape their opinions of things within the community - then the readers/writers relay the discussions to other MUDers they are in contact with via word of mouth. The forums are braved by the more vocal leaders of the community, but through word-of-mouth, the discussions here educate, effect, and resonate with the entire MUDing community on some level.

The_Disciple · 03-16-2006, 05:21 PM

Okay, you got me. I'm baited into going further off-topic.

It's like this: No matter how many stories you build onto your house, how many times you renovate the kitchen, replace the carpet, add a fireplace, etc., the basement is still there. Even if you should add a bathroom and a rec room to the basement, it's still a basement, and your house still has one.

KaVir · 03-16-2006, 05:26 PM

If they don't care, that's up to them. But at least they can now make an informed decision, knowing the facts about the legal and ethical situation of your mud. Because some people do care.

As for not changing anything...before I audited that code, you would always deny being Diku derived. My audit achieved two primary things:

(1) it dramatically reduced the number of flame wars (because every time someone started defending your mud, they would simply be pointed at my site, and after reading it the best they could come up with was "who cares?") and:

(2) it got you and Vryce to stop pretending that you're no longer a derivative, and instead fall back on things like "you can't do anything about it".

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 05:35 PM

Again this is true, so ok, we don't get some players from other MUDs because they have heard through their buddy that we're evil. It is STILL a small minority of the potential players we have out there. If you count up all the MUD players out there, sure there are quite a few, but it doesn't compare to the amount of people we are reaching with our PC gamer ad every month and our other on-going advertising campaigns. Of course we are losing potential players by the ant-medievia crap, but again, I think that the number of people who don't log into our game because of it is pretty insignificant.

Asaudan · 03-16-2006, 05:43 PM

You seem to pay a disproportional amount of attention to this insignificant little campaign. You're right, of course; this site is insignificant also. Totally not worth your time.

Bye, and drive safe. I hear the road to HELL HELL HELL is slippery; they renewed the pavement, belike.

edit: almost forgot my manners.

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 05:45 PM

Asaudan · 03-16-2006, 05:51 PM

Brave confession. Yes, very sadistic.

If you really want to debate, you should introduce some new evidence to keep things fresh. As you pointed out, it's been ten years since the last time, and even then it was non-consensual. I concur: infantile.

Soleil · 03-16-2006, 05:56 PM

New evidence? As I said before, Vryce is not going to let anyone see his code. Call it defensive and childish if you want, but truth be told, he doesn't give a rat's ass about this issue anymore at all. He doesn't even understand why I even get involved anymore. I tell him what I told you, it's fun.

prof1515 · 03-16-2006, 06:03 PM

Correction: The Diku team's code. Just because he stolen it doesn't make it his.

Asaudan · 03-16-2006, 06:07 PM

So you engage in infantile, abusive discussion because it's your idea of fun? I guess you outrank me in our holy troll order.

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03-16-2006, 02:55 PM	#61
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	You double-dog dare me? Wow. Well, when you're done with recess, you may make the choice to either continue to libel us or not. Up to you. --matt

03-16-2006, 03:05 PM	#62
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: Columbus, OH Home MUD: Optional Realities Home MUD: Atonement RPI Home MUD: Project Redshift Posts: 510

03-16-2006, 03:24 PM	#63
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	I know this thread is not about Medievia and that this is totally off-topic, but the thread has already gone way way off-topic so... Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the 'well-documented code audits' you mention are dated 1996, right? That's 10 years ago folks. TEN YEARS. The code that is shown on that audits is NOT the code that exists today. I know I know 'once a derivative, always a derivative'. In addition, not that it matters at all at this point, but the code that was picked apart by KaVir 10 years ago was not given to anyone by the administrators of Medievia. It was in fact stolen itself. And no, we are not going to be giving out Medievia V code for audits so don't even mention it . I just wanted to point out that the code that the 'anti-medievia' people always refers to gets older and older as each year passes. Not to mention the fact that new code is added daily and has been since that 1996 code was leaked. The argument is old, no longer valid, and just as this thread and the other new thread about IRE points out, people just LOVE to rehash old topics over and over and over and over again. Not only that, but these topics are things that will never ever change. IRE will always be listed as 'free' and Medievia is not, and will never be, DIKU.

03-16-2006, 03:58 PM	#64
Asaudan New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14	The problem is that even after those ten years you still refuse to prove your claims of originality. When you lie once, no amount of time spent ducking from the keen pitch-forks of the community's stalwart watchmen will help 'your word' tip these scales in your favour. Face the audit or stand the rumours. It is a sorry state self-selected, but no unfair fate to any of ye, for though the tyrant be Vryce, his underlings have well copied him. You see a man beat a very young girl, and he sees you, indeed, and grabbing the girl, flees into his manor house. Alarmed, you run back to your home town and alarm the militia, who follow you as you lead them to the offender's lands. He refuses to let any past his fortified and trapped yard, but shouts instead from a window that the girl is alright. Meanwhile, rumours spread from your home town to neighbouring lands--tales of this evil man--and there is much grinding of teeth and sewing of war-banners. A siege is laid against one border of the manor, and the angry folk sneer at the friends of the man, who still continue to trade with him despite all. Ten years pass and the man comes out, but his look darkens as he sees that, though he still has his friends, his reputation is ruined. He repeats himself: "The girl is fine!" he says, but the crowd, watching him from behind a tremendous array of long pikes and drawn bows, shall have none of that until they see her for themselves. Yeah, screw them.

03-16-2006, 04:29 PM	#65
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	"In the case of "a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire," the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author's death." "Many people have reimplemented computer programs by rewriting them to replace the source code with code of their own writing. There is no reason to believe that this would not be a copyright infringement, particularly if the reimplementer had access to the source code of the original program, even if none of the original source code remains."

03-16-2006, 04:42 PM	#66
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

03-16-2006, 04:58 PM	#67
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: Columbus, OH Home MUD: Optional Realities Home MUD: Atonement RPI Home MUD: Project Redshift Posts: 510	Actually, KaVir's efforts are a large part of the reason that most of the MUDing community is aware and vocal about Midievia's lack of ethics. Another reason why people who feel strongly about the community's integrity should continually bring up issues with IRE/Matt in an effort to incite positive change for the community.

03-16-2006, 05:07 PM	#68
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	You claimed that the argument was no longer valid because the code was 10 years old and had been changed. I proved that you were wrong.

03-16-2006, 05:12 PM	#69
Asaudan New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14	I said it less than ten years ago, the industry standard for expiration of statements. 'Aim high to hit a far mark,' said Robin o' th' Hood. Or was it 'Objects in mirror are less legal than they appear'? My name is Legion, and also is my name Youpeople, for I am many, whose collective agenda may or may not benefit from driving you away. Not that I need to.

03-16-2006, 05:16 PM	#70
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	True, if you define the 'mudding community' as the people who read TMS, TMC, and Mudmagic forums. In the end, the people who read this forum and the other MUD forums are a very small minority of the people who play MUDs. In Medievia alone, before we started the voting stuff, most of our players never heard of the MUD sites. Even after we have promoted TMS and TMC on the game with echos and so forth, still not many of our players care to come here and read and discuss. What I'm trying to say is that yes, this argument may deter some people from trying Medievia and has in the past I'm sure, but the audience of these sites is only one place out of many that Medievia is listed and advertised. Word of mouth is still, by far, the #1 way people hear about Medievia. On any given day, people joining the game from "Mudportal" is about 10% of our total new character creations. Of that 10% how many have read these threads and care? If they cared, why would they log in in the first place?

03-16-2006, 05:20 PM	#71
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: Columbus, OH Home MUD: Optional Realities Home MUD: Atonement RPI Home MUD: Project Redshift Posts: 510	As MUD Advertising is largely word of mouth, so are issues with IRE and Midievia and many other things that are discussed here. People who do not post read these forums and people who do post read these forums are still affected; the discussions here enlighten people, help shape their opinions of things within the community - then the readers/writers relay the discussions to other MUDers they are in contact with via word of mouth. The forums are braved by the more vocal leaders of the community, but through word-of-mouth, the discussions here educate, effect, and resonate with the entire MUDing community on some level.

03-16-2006, 05:21 PM	#72
The_Disciple Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 113	Okay, you got me. I'm baited into going further off-topic. It's like this: No matter how many stories you build onto your house, how many times you renovate the kitchen, replace the carpet, add a fireplace, etc., the basement is still there. Even if you should add a bathroom and a rec room to the basement, it's still a basement, and your house still has one.

03-16-2006, 05:26 PM	#73
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	If they don't care, that's up to them. But at least they can now make an informed decision, knowing the facts about the legal and ethical situation of your mud. Because some people do care. As for not changing anything...before I audited that code, you would always deny being Diku derived. My audit achieved two primary things: (1) it dramatically reduced the number of flame wars (because every time someone started defending your mud, they would simply be pointed at my site, and after reading it the best they could come up with was "who cares?") and: (2) it got you and Vryce to stop pretending that you're no longer a derivative, and instead fall back on things like "you can't do anything about it".

03-16-2006, 05:35 PM	#74
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	Again this is true, so ok, we don't get some players from other MUDs because they have heard through their buddy that we're evil. It is STILL a small minority of the potential players we have out there. If you count up all the MUD players out there, sure there are quite a few, but it doesn't compare to the amount of people we are reaching with our PC gamer ad every month and our other on-going advertising campaigns. Of course we are losing potential players by the ant-medievia crap, but again, I think that the number of people who don't log into our game because of it is pretty insignificant.

03-16-2006, 05:43 PM	#75
Asaudan New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14	You seem to pay a disproportional amount of attention to this insignificant little campaign. You're right, of course; this site is insignificant also. Totally not worth your time. Bye, and drive safe. I hear the road to HELL HELL HELL is slippery; they renewed the pavement, belike. edit: almost forgot my manners.

03-16-2006, 05:45 PM	#76
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

03-16-2006, 05:51 PM	#77
Asaudan New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14	Brave confession. Yes, very sadistic. If you really want to debate, you should introduce some new evidence to keep things fresh. As you pointed out, it's been ten years since the last time, and even then it was non-consensual. I concur: infantile.

03-16-2006, 05:56 PM	#78
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	New evidence? As I said before, Vryce is not going to let anyone see his code. Call it defensive and childish if you want, but truth be told, he doesn't give a rat's ass about this issue anymore at all. He doesn't even understand why I even get involved anymore. I tell him what I told you, it's fun.

03-16-2006, 06:03 PM	#79
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 791	Correction: The Diku team's code. Just because he stolen it doesn't make it his.

03-16-2006, 06:07 PM	#80
Asaudan New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 14	So you engage in infantile, abusive discussion because it's your idea of fun? I guess you outrank me in our holy troll order.

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