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Old 12-12-2005, 05:28 PM   #21
Soleil
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Sorry about the repeat post
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:29 PM   #22
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There simply is no forcing being done. Simply type vote ivoted and the text goes away. Plain and simple. Read into the 'implied threat' all you want, but if you have played Medievia as long as you are claiming you have, you know that's just Vryce's 'way'. The rest of your post is just crap.. we won't be treating voters any differently than every other player on Medievia. If you break the rules, you get punished, whether you vote or donate or whatever. Enough of the purged players can tell you that. Bottom line is, if you don't like the game and the way it is managed, don't log in
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,18:29)
There simply is no forcing being done. Simply type vote ivoted and the text goes away. Plain and simple. Read into the 'implied threat' all you want, but if you have played Medievia as long as you are claiming you have, you know that's just Vryce's 'way'. The rest of your post is just crap.. we won't be treating voters any differently than every other player on Medievia. If you break the rules, you get punished, whether you vote or donate or whatever. Enough of the purged players can tell you that. Bottom line is, if you don't like the game and the way it is managed, don't log in
Wait a second, I think I must have missed something, with both you and Aardwolf.

Voting isn't what is giving different messages. It's whether you typed 'ivoted' or not. That's not against the rules at all as far as I can tell, as it's not basing anything on whether someone's voted or not, just on whether they typed 'ivoted', which doesn't have to have anything to do with voting.

My apologies. I just misunderstood how you and Aardwolf were doing things with the voting prompt.

--matt
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:37 PM   #24
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To those of us who know better, Soleil's post is utter crap.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:40 PM   #25
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Ok, so the new helpfile on Medievia says,

"Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history."

Which seems to be at odds with your bit about how voters won't be treated any differently. And as to asking purged players about breaking the rules, I can think of a handful that were purged due to mistakes Med gods never admitted to.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:42 PM   #26
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Mild Mudder- Well, we both think what each other is writing is crap, we agree to disagree?

And Matt- yes we don't link voting to people's ips or anything like that. We give them the prompt to remind them to vote. They can type vote ivote for the prompt to go away, whether they vote or not. We have no way to prove if the person actually went and voted. So, are you now saying that we are NOT doing anything against the rules?
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (betrayed.by.gods @ Dec. 12 2005,18:40)
Ok, so the new helpfile on Medievia says,

"Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history."

Which seems to be at odds with your bit about how voters won't be treated any differently. And as to asking purged players about breaking the rules, I can think of a handful that were purged due to mistakes Med gods never admitted to.
If it makes you feel any better, Medievia cannot tell if you have a script running to do that or not.

They can't tell if you've voted unless you tell them you do, and there's no way for them to verify it. You'll know this has changed if you mouse-over the vote link and see that you're going through a redirector rather than straight to part of the Topmudsites site.

--matt
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:46 PM   #28
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an except from the imm channel on medievia:

---------------------------------------------------
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: it wont be there for long
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: now that we are doing what others are doing with the vote prompt and are winning, they wan
t a new rule
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: they say they soon wont allow it
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: anything they can do so med cant win
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: my suggestion is to vote like crazy this week, we called their bluff and it worked
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Dirocus:: you think its a conspiracy against you v
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: I dont think, they say it is
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: they even admit it is
[Mon Dec 12 17:55] Vryce(148):: go on the forums and post how much med is better than the other muds if you get a chance
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:50 PM   #29
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So bottom line, rather than admit he might have been wrong, it's now a conspiracy.

Gets better and better!
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,18:42)
And Matt- yes we don't link voting to people's ips or anything like that. We give them the prompt to remind them to vote. They can type vote ivote for the prompt to go away, whether they vote or not. We have no way to prove if the person actually went and voted. So, are you now saying that we are NOT doing anything against the rules?
Well, I'm not Adam and so am certainly not the official rules interpreter, but the current ones are pretty short and simple as regards this,

"You cannot display different messages based on whether someone voted or not, or reward a player for voting by not showing messages."

You guys aren't doing that (again, my apologies, I misunderstood how you and Aardwolf were doing things). You're displaying different messages based on whether someone has typed 'ivoted' or not, and there's nothing stopping anyone from typing 'ivoted' regardless of whether they've voted.

--matt
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (mild mudder @ Dec. 12 2005,18:50)
So bottom line, rather than admit he might have been wrong, it's now a conspiracy.

Gets better and better!
No, we were too quick to condemn them. Threatening your players for not voting is kind of a weird thing to do, but it's not against any rules on TMS as they're printed on the website at least.

--matt
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:06 PM   #32
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[Mon Dec 12 186] Vryce(148):: I will know who pasted it all via IP address

Well, guess I'm in trouble now. Nice to know how they treat people with dissenting opinions on Medievia
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:12 PM   #33
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I've asked this on the imm channel but you didn't answer, so I'll ask it here... If you HATE Medievia so much, why are you loggin in? Why are you logged in RIGHT NOW, waiting for Vryce's every word on the imm channel? Do you like the drama? Do you think all this cutting and pasting is making Medievia look bad? As I just said on imm, it's all free publicity, bring it on!
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:18 PM   #34
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I must say, this is a vey interesting thread. I've been playing Med for 5 years, off and on...have I agreed with all changes that have been made? No. Is this particular change my favorite? No. Am I going to condemn the game for it? No.

Looking through all of this, what has been implemented on Med is not much different than what another game that has consistently been at the top has done. And yet we get a large finger of blame pointed squarely at us, get accused of cheating, and threatening the players. Why is this? Medievia is a damn good game. I've never seen a MUD survive so long as Med has, nor have I seen a game evolve in the manner that it has. Hands-down, it is the most complex MUD that I, and anyone I have ever spoken to, has played. For it all to work, and to have the playerbase that we have, we MUST be doing something right...and there wouldn't be such cries of outrage about this if someone, somewhere, didn't recognize this. So far as the post from the IMM channel in this forum, I did not see it, and cannot say whether or not it happened, but anyone who knows Med and it's staff, many tongue-in-cheek things are said, by Gods, Heroes, and Lowbies alike. It's the nature of the game. As far as the prompt flag goes? I haven't cleared it, I subbed it. And reading the helpfile as I have several times today, it only states any less-than-favorable treatment toward those who use the in-game command to clear it, when they haven't...because doing so is LYING...and lying GENERALLY, among the sane populace, reaps no rewards. The alternative, if you don't want to vote, and don't want to see it: /sub {<Help IVOTE>} {:} in Mudmaster...if you use zMUD I can't help you, but it CERTAINLY can't be hard to figure out. This system, therefore, is essentially opt-outable. Enough said.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:24 PM   #35
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Too quick to condemn them? I think not. I've been through too many things with them, too many questionable "scenarios" for it to be a mistake.

The problem is, they keep getting away with it. And obviously, they're going to continue getting away with it.

If you had logged on and seen a message just like the one that's been posted all over the forums today, with no other explanation, what would you think? The same things all of us did. And you'd be right. This isn't the first time V's threatened us.

And now Medievia has jumped up high from a lower position. A very significant jump I might say. Because people believe the same things we do. Before, when they would do a global echo to vote, they didn't get nearly as many as they are right now. All they got were a bunch of complaints over IMM about the spammy echoes and how no one wanted to vote.

Medievia cheated. They used a threat and it got results. Nice to know TMC supports such muds.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (mild mudder @ Dec. 12 2005,19:24)
Medievia cheated. They used a threat and it got results. Nice to know TMC supports such muds.
But wait, how did they cheat? You may not like what they've done. You may consider it slimy or mean or manipulative, but which rule did they violate? I mistakenly thought they were sending different messages based on whether or not you've voted, but they're not: They're sending different messages based on whether or not you type the 'ivoted' command.

So I mean, you may not like it, but which rule is that breaking?

--matt
P.S. It's also not worth considering the jump a first day or even first week method of vote motivation gets. Players react strongly to new/different things, but once Medievia's players are used to this new (to them) system, their behavior is likely to level off.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:34 PM   #37
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Whether its against the rules or not, and whether they are going to treat mudders differently or not, it IS quite base to think that Medievia is threatening its players.

If you log onto Aardwolf you will NOT know to vote or that Aard wants you to vote until *players* push the idea. You won't know about the ivoted mechanism till someone tells you, and unlike Medievia its not put into your prompt automatically. You don't have to type anything, it won't remind you ever until you *opt-in*.

When someone spams you, you don't opt-out by deleting the message. Opting-out means not getting any more messages at all. You can't do this on medievia.

The immortals of medievia have also owned up to the threatening. It doesn't matter that it might or might not be inforced, players see the threat and they will feel compelled to go vote.

I read the spirit of the rules to be, players should vote because they want to vote. They should NOT vote because of coersion or a belief that they will be punished in some way. This is exactly whats happening with some voters on Medieva and why its vote count is inflating rapidly.

It is, bottom line, incredibly scummy to threaten one's playerbase. Put up with it or not, if you love the mud so much, but within this forum and this website, it should be something we lambast.

Aardwolf isn't breaking the rules because its a mechanism that is used *voluntarily* by the player and is not presented whether you voted or not, its presented whether you chose to be reminded to vote or not. Thats an incredible difference from presented automatically without your consent and packaged with a threat (however empty). A threat doesn't have to be enforced to be effective, it merely has to be believed.

I feel that Medieva should either change their system to be like aard's where you opt-in to be reminded and by removing the threat and apologizing to its player base, OR being removed from the vote list for non-compliance with the rules.

Medieva is obviously breaking the rules by coercing its playerbase through threats and automatic reminding.

N
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:45 PM   #38
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Nothing I have seen indicates that there WILL be action taken against players that do not vote. I've watched the conversation on the Immortal channel. The information given in help states this:

Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history.

If you can read plain English, and have the capacity to not make rash assumptions, this states that IF YOU RUN A SCRIPT TO CLEAR THE PROMPT, AND SAY YOU HAVE VOTED, WITHOUT ACTUALLY VOTING, IT WILL BE FROWNED UPON. This is akin to LYING, as I have said. Those of you with children, do you not take action against your kids if they lie to you? If they lie to you, do you give them what they want next time they ask for something of you? NO! I'm not even a parent, and that makes perfect sense to me.

As far as the rules of the site, whether a system is opt-in only, mandatory, or non-existent, should not matter. The game, in any way shape or form, AND THIS APPLIES TO ANY GAME, NOT JUST AARDWOLF OR MED, the game is canvassing its own playerbase for votes. If someone feels a game is worth voting for, they should be able to do it of their own accord, they should not need the game to remind them at any point. But if it is to be allowed in one shape or form, all other shapes or forms are essentially the same--the game is canvassing its own playerbase.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (naubol @ Dec. 12 2005,19:34)
Whether its against the rules or not, and whether they are going to treat mudders differently or not, it IS quite base to think that Medievia is threatening its players.
Well, I'm not going to disagree there. I don't know what would possess an admin, especially of a commercial MUD, to threaten players for not voting, but being a jerk isn't against TMS rules either.

--matt
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:49 PM   #40
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It's still a threat. I don't think it's right for a mud to demand that it's players vote for it, or else they might not get the help they need later on.
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