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Old 04-30-2006, 01:50 AM   #41
The_Disciple
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To take your analogy, it's like if a friend of yours loaned you his hammer and chisel for free to make a statue with, because you didn't have your own. And maybe he's like, "Hey, buddy, I'm happy to lend you my hammer and chisel, but if you make a great statue, tell people I helped you out, okay?"

I mean, if you don't want to, you could buy your own hammer and chisel. Maybe you think your buddy is a little weird that he wants you to tell people that you borrowed his hammer and chisel. You've got that choice. But it's kind of a jerky thing to do to instead take what he loaned you out of the kindness of his heart and then disrespect his wishes.

I think that's part of why people get so up in arms about it -- they feel like the DIKU team isn't asking for a lot for what they provided, and that it's a real slap in the face to not give them their tiny bit of due.
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:51 AM   #42
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Edit: Damn my accidental double-posting.
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:50 AM   #43
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To me the 'legal' discussion is pretty irrelevant, since none of you are qualified lawyers, and in any case Americal lawyers seem able to twist almost anything in any direction they like.

However, from an ethical and moral point of view what Medievia did was shady, to say the least. Not only did they strip the credits out because they were making money from the code against the intent of the Diku licence. They also insulted the original coders in that 'History' link that Soleil provided.

Whether the wording of the licence is flawed or not, there is certainly no doubt about what the INTENT of it is. Ignoring that intent is unethical, and there is a pretty large concensus among the Mud ownerss about this. The fact that some who think differently are very vocal about it does not make them a majority.

For what they did, Medievia will always be shunned by decent mudowners. And since Vryce lied once, who'd trust his word again?
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:57 AM   #44
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Laws do not equal ethics, Amen to that. Then why are you questioning my ethics, claim that "my value-set comes under fire" (or even worse, try to claim that I am ethically grouped with some people that I don't even know) for participating in a discussion about the legal aspect of the license? Is my ethics so horribly bad for pointing out that there are lawyers (as consulted by me, Medievia and also by Matt, among others) that feel that Medievia would be likely to prevail in this case? We're merely stating what has been told to us. I am sure there are lawyers who feel differently too. IPR litigation is horribly complex - it's not just a matter of quoting a section of law - it is even more about interpreting it. There's a nice article about this at. It's interesting to note that in the Lotus v. Borland copyright litigation, even the US Supreme court was divided (4-4) on the issue. It's naive to claim there is only one absolute legal truth in these matters.

Also, a newsflash - there is no uniform, heterogeneous "text-mmorpg society" that "has vastly decided" anything. Only a small fraction of the admins of the "text-mmorpg society" even frequent these forums (and honestly, I see why), and even less players. This thread alone is a fine example, that even in this small group of people who do frequent the forum, there are numerous different positions on the matter. There are some people who have made up their mind in one direction, there are others who have made up their mind in another. And the overwhelming majority is somewhere in the middle, with little interest in this fight or who just haven't decided.

As for my agenda, I don't have one (I'm sure this would be easier for you to categorize and minimize me, if I was an evil capitalist person who is cashing in on his own MUD, but alas - the only profit I get from MUDs is personal enjoyment). But based on the zealous conviction with which you and KaVir have pushed forward on this topic, it seems obvious that you guys have one, and you can't tolerate any dissent. I have to wonder, if a US court would eventually rule in favor of Medievia, would your world shatter? Or would you be able to embrace their ruling and accept Medievia as a full, and equally respectable, member of the "text-mmorpg society"?
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:43 AM   #45
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A quick question... How long is the copyright good for?

(It is to my understanding that copyright lasts X amount of years...unless you somehow anaged to get it renewed)
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:47 AM   #46
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Old 04-30-2006, 08:16 AM   #47
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Since it wasn't copyrighted in the USA, the 70 years or til you're dead thing wouldn't apply anyway. And none of those lawyers' interpretations apply either since they were applying American law to their opinion, as far as I know. Just sayin...
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Old 04-30-2006, 08:43 AM   #48
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Having read all of KaVir's links, and also the one supplied by Soliel... well, if Medivia have indeed claimed in the past (even if it was ten years ago) that their coding was 100% original and it was proved otherwise, I suppose no one can deny KaVir, or anyone elses, suspicions that it might still be the case. Certainly, Vryce's apparent refusal to let anyone (even an independant party), go over the code with nothing less short of a court order may very well imply that he has something to hide.

But it may equally just be that Vryce does not want his code going out in the open and possibly being plagiarised or copied in some form or other. Or perhaps he simply feels that no matter what he does, his work will always be interpreted as having DIKU origins.

Whatever the case, it seems rather apparent that Medievia is rather unconcerned about public opinion. Or at least, the opinion of it's detractors. For a mud that has come under such heavy fire, they still are doing rather well. It would seem that they're doing something right.

As for the DIKU creators, they too seem to have either given up on this case, or simply never cared too much about it in the first place.

Perhaps it is rather noble, to fight the just fight, and argue the moral cause. Personally, I never saw much point in fighting for people who aren't interested in fighting for themselves.

-Iblis.
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:00 AM   #49
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It's one thing for them to pretend their work never had anything to do with DIKU, it's another to slap DIKU in the face for the gift they were provided. Especially given that a partial fix (restoring the credits, thus solving their plagiarism problem) is completely free and could be done in 5 minutes.

For a parallel, look at Vryce's conversation with Synozeer after they got caught cheating on the voting list here. Synozeer provides a free service, Vryce abuses it until caught, then claims the service was stupid and worthless anyway.
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:01 AM   #50
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No - yet again - the Diku licence is not a contract. The Diku team's case would be that Medievia is infringing their copyright. To which Medievia has only two possible responses:

1. They admit that they are indeed infringing the Diku copyright, or:

2. They hold up the Diku licence, and try to claim that it gives them permission to use the code in the way they've used it.

The question then becomes, does the Diku licence allow Medievia to use the Diku code in the way they've used it? The answer, quite clearly, is no - even ignoring the controversial "profit" part, there's no getting around the fact that Medievia has stripped out the credits and copyright notices.
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:13 AM   #51
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The Diku team put a lot of work into their game as well - don't you think they at least deserve the recognition for that work?

No, because the hammer and chisels are just tools. But if someone were to make copies of your statue, claim it as their own work, and make a living by selling those copies, how would you feel?

But it's not just about the theft - it's also about the repercussions. The Diku team have cited Medievia as one of the main reasons they stopped working on muds. What do you think the mud community would be like today if there'd never been a Diku mud? And what do you think it might have been like if they'd released Diku II to the public?

And it goes beyond that. I've had to deal with numerous people over the years who have cited Medievia as an example of why they shouldn't have to follow the licence either (including people using my codebases) - and I know I'm not the only one. Quite a few other mud developers have publically mentioned Medievia as the reason why they've decided not to release their code - they don't see why they should bother, if someone's just going to strip out the credits and claim it as their own.

The only people who really benefit are those who run completely custom muds, and don't use anyone else's work. For them, it reduces the viable competition within the community, as less newer stuff is being released.
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:16 AM   #52
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Just to clear up a little confusion - registration is not a prerequisite to receive copyright for your work. Copyright is a right that is automatically given to an author, irregardless of their national origin.

Both the US and Denmark (where the DIKU team was based) are members of the WCT (WIPO Copyright Treaty) and prior to that to UCC Paris 1971 (1974 for the US), which guarantees copyrighted Danish works protections through local legislation in the US.

Section 104 of title 17 of the US Code states:
"Subject matter of copyright: National origin:
...
(b) Published works. The works specified by sections 102 and 103, when published, are subject to protection under this title if: -
 (2) the work is first published in the United States or in a foreign nation that, on the date of first publication, is a treaty party"

There are some differences in the copyright legislation, but since the EU recently issued a directive (that has been turned into local laws) extending the period of copyright to 70 years after the authors death (some exceptions for photographs and databases apply), the period of copyright is similar for US and Denmark.
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:16 AM   #53
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DikuMUD is registered with the US Copyright Office. It's copyright number is: TX 4-424-366
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:27 AM   #54
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The EULA's or Terms of Service that accompany many software, is equally not a contract, but a license to use a piece of software for a specified purpose. Yet, several provisions of EULA's have been overturned (especially dealing with limit of warranty) as they have been found unenforcable or against the local laws. I fail to see how this is materially different from the DIKU license. Hence Medievia could claim that they are complying with the license for some parts, and not complying with others which they feel are unfair, overly restrictive or which contradict local laws. It is then up for a court to decide if that is the case.

I will agree with you though, that the credits part is problematic.

Edit:

I just went back and reread the DIKU license, and now I wonder *why* it could not possibly be seen as a contract. I have raid the ilaw.com.au article that states:
The first of the preconditions could arguably be filled with providing visible credit (at the MUD admins expense) to the DIKU team. There is no requirement that the "something of value" has to be money, nor that it has to be in proportion to the goods received (selling a car for $1 is legal under contract law). The DIKU license differs significantly from what GPL or most open source licenses require (and that's what the ilaw.com.au article deals with) in requiring such favors from the other party.

The second precondition is fulfilled by the licensee sending "a message, by snail-mail or email". Or so I would interpret it, but the differences between contracts and licenses isn't really my strong side.
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Old 04-30-2006, 10:42 AM   #55
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I'm not sure.  The thing I am saying is that usually, there is a dustributor and a distributee.  The person who receives a copy is not generally the person being held responsible for "distributing".  So, receiving the thing is not a violation of the license, even if one chooses to download it in bad faith, knowing full well they mean to break the agreement, they are not the distributer.  Once the code has changed hands, it doesn't matter anymore about the license, because copyright law simply does not give any rights to check on or control that.  Copyright is about copying, not usage.  Fair use is another issue altogether, but it doesn't even come up here as long as the person who used the code for profit does not then go on to redistribute it in some fashion.

I imagine one sneaky thing one could do is apply to code there, wait to "receieve" the code in some form or fashion, then accuse Medievia of distributing after having broken the license, but as has already been posted as of my reading of your post, the Diku team themselves acknowledge they have no legal leg to stand on to demand a code audit.

I don't know what the legal ramifications are to faking an interest in coding there so that you can then receive code and accuse them of distribution.
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:00 PM   #56
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:10 PM   #57
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KaVir, I've always wondered this: Where did you get your law degree?

You speak in absolute terms as if you have perfect, absolute knowledge of the law and how a case such as this would be ruled upon. Since you do that, you must have formal legal training, right?

Otherwise, you'd just be giving your UNTRAINED OPINION of the law, and therefore should stop declaring in such absolute terms what is right, what is the law, and how things would be decided.

Furthermore, I hope you realize that there is a reason for law schools, bar exams, clerkships, and apprenticing (sometimes known as associate work). The law is more complex than an untrained layman can possibly understand and interpret with any degree of certainty or reliability. In fact, (sad as it may be) lawyers (who happen to be the ones who write the laws as judges, politicians, or legislative assistants to politicians) deliberately craft the law so as to guarantee the importance of their own profession. You would do well to remember that and stop declaring things as if you know them to be absolutely true.

I actually have a law degree and worked as a lawyer for a short time (before I realized I hated it). Even with that formal training and work experience, I am still aware that IP is one of the more complicated areas of law and would not feel comfortable making declarations as absolute as yours.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the degree of absolute certainty you claim to have is utterly absurd and ridiculous.
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:36 PM   #58
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DonathinFyre wrote:
Let's assume this is what they asked (which is far from certain. What they asked is what the license says, not what anyone's individual interpretation of they'd like the license to say is.) How are you able to prove that Medievia, for instance, is making a profit?

That's also not their only request, incidentally. They also requested that everyone running DIKU send them an email or snail-mail informing the DIKU authors that they are.

A few people does not the community make. The people who regularly attack Medievia don't have any legitimate claim to community representation. They weren't elected and given that there may be over 100,000 people in the text MUD community, claiming representation on the basis of a couple dozen voices is beyond dubious.

--matt
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:42 PM   #59
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John wrote:
Isn't there a problem here insofar as you are assuming they are breaking the DIKU license? IP law is very complicated, as many posters (including one with a law degree) have pointed out. The idea that some non-experts on internet forums are capable of accurately predicting the outcome of a legal process involving the DIKU authors challenging Medievia is a little ridiculous. Even when I spoke to an IP expert on the matter, he cautioned that all he was giving me was an opinion based on the facts I gave him. I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not a lawyer who is an IP expert, so it's therefore entirely possible that I unintentionally left out facts that are material to the case. I'd have no way of being sure what IS relevant to the case, because I'm not an expert.

--matt
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:45 PM   #60
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The Disciple wrote:
The legal aspects aren't irrelevant though. If the DIKU teams feels they are being harmed significantly, the usual legal avenues are open to them. If they don't feel they're being harmed sufficiently to sue, then apparently it's a pretty minor issue in their lives.

--matt
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