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Old 05-30-2002, 07:20 PM   #21
Dulan
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Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to an extent, yes.

However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old in Iaijutsu.

-D
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Old 05-30-2002, 08:46 PM   #22
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> Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to
> an extent, yes.

We're speaking of Shaolin kung-fu, which was the original form of kung-fu. Like most martial arts, it incorporates elements of both hard and soft:

http://www.shaolin.com/shaolin_faq.html#anchor174231

> However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old
> in Iaijutsu.

I fail to see your point. You implied that Jet Li was inconsequential because he started training at 9, and that supposedly "serious" martial arts don't train those younger than 14. You've also mentioned that you don't consider the "Americanised" versions to be "serious" martial arts.

Yet Shaolin kung-fu - the original kung-fu - trains those as young as 6 (and it's certainly not "Americanised"). Are you now claiming that in order to be considered a "serious" martial art, it must consist entirely of killing your opponent while drawing your sword? (for those who don't know, Iaijutsu is a form of martial arts centered on the use of the Daito, and consists of a simultaneous drawing/cutting motion, followed by ritually cleaning the blood from the blade, and then returning the sword to its scabbard).
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Old 05-31-2002, 02:53 AM   #23
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Interesting, KaVir. I'll take a look at it later.

From what I've seen, understood, and experienced, any art that accepts people earlier then the early to mid teens tends to be a wee bit "soft", to be blunt.

Iaijutsu (Not Iaido. Significant difference.) tends to be a good example of this - Look at the philosophy. I _know_ I would _not_ want any of my small cousins, nephews, or relations that are not at least in their mid teens following Iaijutsu. While there are exceptions to the rule, not many young people that I know are mature enough _and have the strength of will_ to understand the core of what is being taught.

Let me rephrase - how many 6 year olds do you see being taught to kill? While some young folk may be mature enough to understand what is being taught, many do not yet understand _why_ it is being taught. And this is a hard topic to express - it is something understood at an almost unconscious level even by my own Sensei. He explained it fairly well, but I managed to only remember the geist of what he said. Yes, there is a definite sort of ageism - and I am the first to admit, there are definitely 14 year olds that should not be learning martial arts. (In fact, we have a teenager on these boards that should be held back at least 20 miles from the nearest Sensei, imo.) However, age is as close as anyone can come to a generic "maturity indicator". And even then - it sucks as an indicator.

As a personal sidenote to KaVir: I am personally surprised you have heard of Iaijutsu. Any prior martial arts training? Or just a casual interest? When I say 'Iaijutsu' ('net or RL), most people look at me odd, and proclaim me an idiot who has never trained in his life.

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Old 05-31-2002, 05:32 AM   #24
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From what I've seen, understood, and experienced, any art that accepts people earlier then the early to mid teens tends to be a wee bit "soft", to be blunt.
But to be equally blunt, so what?  You seem to imply that "hard" martial arts are somehow better than "soft" ones, when in my experience that's simply not the case (yes, I've fought in mixed-style tournaments, up to medium-contact - although I've witnessed numerous full-contact fights as well).  I tend to favour soft blocks coupled with hard attacks (eg a single-whip followed by an elbow to the face - or a palm-strike to the solar-plexus if I don't want to cause serious injury), but the two styles are generally inseparable - you need both in any martial art.

And yes, children should try to avoid many of the "hard" techniques while their bodies are still growing, or they can damage themselves; it's not about damaging others.  The soft techniques can be just as dangerous in that respect.

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As a personal sidenote to KaVir: I am personally surprised you have heard of Iaijutsu. Any prior martial arts training? Or just a casual interest?
I trained in kung-fu (a mixture of styles) for 3 years and a sort of kickboxing/kung-fu hybrid style for 7 years (with a 1-year crossover - so a total of 9 years).  I started at the age of 12, and stopped at the age of 21 (when I left University).  I keep meaning to start again, but never get around to it.  The styles I learned consisted of a mixture of hard and soft techniques, including a number of moves which can kill or break bones (one that I always remember is a hard-block against a kick, with a follow-up that breaks both of your opponents legs!).  We also learned a few weapons, although the closest I came to a sword was the Boken.  I used to be quite good with Tonfa, though.

However to be fair my knowledge of Iaijutsu comes from a roleplaying game.  Learning how to kill someone as quickly as possible with a sword isn't a very useful skill in the real world, but it comes in very handy in a fantasy RPG - or a mud (I'm sure you're familiar with the "fastdraw" skill in GodWars).
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Old 05-31-2002, 03:05 PM   #25
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what i hate in this forum,people dont have any sense of humor at all...*sniffs*
but hell,sometimes its so fun to see someone comparing REAL masters to the kickers i posted ! (except for Li and Chen)

now,speaking of Iaijutsu,different schools even of one art have completely different philosophy (yesyes,there are even REAL ninjutsu schools with philosophy close to samurai !!
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From what I've seen, understood, and experienced, any art that accepts people earlier then the early to mid teens tends to be a wee bit "soft", to be blunt
if you speak of 'soft' styles,then you have no point at all. Soft styles are equally serious as hard styles. Even more serious. They require years and years and years of learning just to begin studying them, not speaking of being a master in them.Besides,if you think that soft styles cant be 'hard' , you're wrong again. Using my previous terminology - they kick @$$ just a side question : did you seen Sin I techniques in action ? (or whatever it is spelled in english )
I wouldnt dare to start learning any of the soft styles.They are too hard.
Perhaps you dont know most common definition of 'soft' and 'hard' styles ? Soft ones are based on using energy of Ki (Czi,Chi or whatever) ,and hard ones are based on muscular strenght. For example even Shaolin's (which is mostly 'hard' school) snake style is considered mid-way between 'hard' and 'soft' styles.Would you dare to say snake style of Shaolin is too weak for you ?
And, if you think teacher have to be kicking or whatever his students every day to make them learn better,you're wrong. many schools with 'soft' learning techniques have no worser results then ones with 'hard' learning techniques (not speaking about styles here ).
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Old 05-31-2002, 03:12 PM   #26
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But to be equally blunt, so what?  You seem to imply that "hard" martial arts are somehow better than "soft" ones, when in my experience that's simply not the case (yes, I've fought in mixed-style tournaments, up to medium-contact - although I've witnessed numerous full-contact fights as well).  I tend to favour soft blocks coupled with hard attacks (eg a single-whip followed by an elbow to the face - or a palm-strike to the solar-plexus if I don't want to cause serious injury), but the two styles are generally inseparable - you need both in any martial art.
Mmm. I see. However, I would like to dispute the "hard" better then "soft". In my experience, "hard" tend to have a different focus then "soft". And, as well, I have seen repeated spars between Aikido users and Aikijujutsu users - ending in the jujutsu users favor, normally. I have seen spars with a sandan using aikijujutsu defeating a godan in aikido with ease. "Soft" arts, such as Aikido, tend to have been bastardized to be more beautiful - as one poster in here pointed out, Aikido may be beautiful, but untill you are a fairly high dan, it is not a particularly excellent art.

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And yes, children should try to avoid many of the "hard" techniques while their bodies are still growing, or they can damage themselves; it's not about damaging others.  The soft techniques can be just as dangerous in that respect.
Interesting. My understanding is that children are not yet ready on a mental level to understand why the art is being taught. I'd tend to agree here, as well, however.

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I trained in kung-fu (a mixture of styles) for 3 years and a sort of kickboxing/kung-fu hybrid style for 7 years (with a 1-year crossover - so a total of 9 years).  I started at the age of 12, and stopped at the age of 21 (when I left University).  I keep meaning to start again, but never get around to it.  The styles I learned consisted of a mixture of hard and soft techniques, including a number of moves which can kill or break bones (one that I always remember is a hard-block against a kick, with a follow-up that breaks both of your opponents legs!.  We also learned a few weapons, although the closest I came to a sword was the Boken.  I used to be quite good with Tonfa, though.
Mmm. A single highlight move? A pin, with proper extension, that tears through ligaments, tendens, and cartilege in the shoulder, rendering the arm (permanently) useless. This, and other moves, are a major reason (to my understanding) that the jutsu style is limited to people of a certain age - you would not want a child demonstrating that move on his classmates. Or his friends. Or siblings. Etc., etc. And on another note: Bokken are fun to make. Especially if you make one special for a fight with this one type of wood, the name escapes my mind right now, that will almost always split _vertically_ upon the first or second hit. It is amusing to me, at least.

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However to be fair my knowledge of Iaijutsu comes from a roleplaying game.  Learning how to kill someone as quickly as possible with a sword isn't a very useful skill in the real world, but it comes in very handy in a fantasy RPG - or a mud (I'm sure you're familiar with the "fastdraw" skill in GodWars).
Mmm. Fastdraw is fun. Just slap an artifact and a decent weap in sheaths, use crappy weaps. Stupid people'll attack you for them, and since no one ever practices fastdraw, everyone forgets about it .

(edited in response to Shao)

I have no experience with gung-fu, or kung-fu. My experience has been strictly with Japanese styles - Jiu Jutsu (Or Jitsu, if you accept that irritating modification), Kendo and Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, Aikido and Aikijutsu, as well as Yawara. I will look into a few spars with users of kung-fu later, however, and see if it is all that you claim. But, my experience does not find soft arts as strong as hard arts. Many times, soft arts are modified to be more beautiful, easier, and such. But, I will say this - when someone that is not even a pre-teen can acquire a shodan rank, that is wrong. If an art has the -kyu ranks, -dan should not be awarded so easily as that.

-D
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Old 05-31-2002, 04:57 PM   #27
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http://www.shaolin.com/styles_shaolin.html

"...the concepts of hard/soft internal/external are finding fewer proponents among senior martial artists. Both conceptual twins are impossible to separate in reality, and masters will generally acknowledge that any distinction is largely only a matter of subjective interpretation. Arguments about the reality of the concepts are often waged by novices and philosophical dilettantes, ignorant of the inseparable nature of duality."
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Old 05-31-2002, 07:37 PM   #28
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"...the concepts of hard/soft internal/external are finding fewer proponents among senior martial artists. Both conceptual twins are impossible to separate in reality, and masters will generally acknowledge that any distinction is largely only a matter of subjective interpretation. Arguments about the reality of the concepts are often waged by novices and philosophical dilettantes, ignorant of the inseparable nature of duality."
For Kung Fu, possibly KaVir.

However, remember that I am using "soft/hard" in the context of -do and -jutsu here. Again, my experience has been limited to Japanese styles that used the Japanese terms exclusively - -Jutsu implies a war form, a form whose intent is to kill or disable ones opponent through any means necessary. -Do implies a sport, a spiritual thing. Aiki-DO is beautiful. But it has weaknesses, and it lacks several Aiki-juJUTSU holds that can be devastating.

I think I was wrong in my intepretation of soft/hard as per -do/-jutsu. Probably was, in fact. However, my sensei - a kudan, mind you - does acknowledge the difference between the style he uses, Iaijutsu, from Iaido. I'll go out on a limb, and assume a kudan can possibly know what he is talking about. However, in my experience, the usage of 'soft/hard' has had only limited use. Apparently, I misunderstood their usage - but that does not weaken my point any. Unless, KaVir, you are claiming that it would be a _good thing_ to teach a kindergartener or 1st grader (For the US types)/6 year old the pin I described in my previous post? If so, then I must take up a vast issue with you there.

-D
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Old 06-01-2002, 08:47 AM   #29
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Unless, KaVir, you are claiming that it would be a _good thing_ to teach a kindergartener or 1st grader (For the US types)/6 year old the pin I described in my previous post?
Nope, my only argument is that a martial art isn't any less "serious" just because it is taught to children, and that some combination of both "hard" and "soft" are necessary for an effective fighting style.
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Old 06-02-2002, 12:26 PM   #30
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whooooaa....hold on !!! you're telling me anything that has 'do' in it tends to be 'weaker' then jutsu !! man,you know NOTHING of martial or whatever else combat arts then !!
would you say Kendo isnt powerful enough for you ??
all the older japanese schools had 'do' in their name,until approx 18th century.And dont tell me kendo is weak,or its a sport.And,when you speak about 'beauty' of martial arts,you're wrong too. All the martial arts,at least older ones, were created to be beatiful.And deadly.
Kendo is not a sport.It is an art.Art of war.
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Old 06-02-2002, 01:39 PM   #31
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Wow, Shao. If that's all you know about the Japanese style of martial arts...-snicker- -snicker-. The modern day -do has been modified so that you can use them in sport. The modern day -jutsu retains all of the original schools "deadliness", as you put it. Why do you think some styles of arts cannot be used in any sort of tournament? At least, non-armored tournament before KaVir pipes up. For some reason, I find a martial arts tournament in which people are stumbling around in armor that weighs almost as much as they do amusing. Various "moves" (for lack of a better word, I do not know the English equivalent) in Aikijujutsu would not be taught in Aikido, again. Their only use is for destroying the opponents body - permanently, in many cases. There is no use for moves such as these within a -do style.

As for kendo, if I had no use for it, I would not study it, would I Shao? -Do arts have a different focus then -jutsu arts. There are exceptions on both sides that I have generalized, I do admit, however, I speak from experience here Shao. How much experience do you have, other then supposed "gung/kung fu" training? While only in Kendo and Aikido have I put in as much work as KaVir's 7 or 8 years, I am still a sandan in multiple arts. Arrogant - yes. Asinine - exceedingly. Proud - hell yes I am. I've been doing this since I was 10 or 11, starting with Karate (Eww. Eww. Eww), and then Aikido. That is where my comments on children not being able to understand -jutsu styles comes from. From my own experience.

KaVir: Read my statements again. I meant to imply that Kung Fu could be neither a -jutsu or -do style, instead, it could incorporate parts of both within it. Again, my definitions of 'soft'/'hard' come from only being used on the practice mat (Make sure to perform this pin soft, and not extend fully!, and a bad assumption.

-D
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Old 06-02-2002, 03:37 PM   #32
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I meant to imply that Kung Fu could be neither a -jutsu or -do style, instead, it could incorporate parts of both within it
The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese. Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.
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Old 06-02-2002, 03:58 PM   #33
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The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese.
Again, I have no experience with non-Japanese styles, which Kung Fu is definitely not Japanese in origin - it is Chinese, as we seem to keep repeating.

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Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.
A very good convention, mind you. -points to previous examples of his mistaken hard art assumption-.

-D
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Old 06-03-2002, 03:42 PM   #34
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The modern day -do has been modified so that you can use them in sport. The modern day -jutsu retains all of the original schools "deadliness", as you put it.
1. I dont care about *modern day -do* . I speak about *original* -do. And if you think schools in which I was and am studying have something to do with *modern* names, you're wrong. Speaking about *deadliness*, would okinawate be *deadly* enough for you ? or its not ? one blow with fingers piercing metallic armor is too weak for you ?
what about jujutsu ? if you didnt knew,its a sport. Pure sport. As any sport, it has its combat usefulness.

Besides,all these naming discussions have no point. There are no two schools which use any single name in one meaning.



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As for kendo, if I had no use for it, I would not study it, would I Shao?
Again,many meanings of single word. What do you call use ? I never used my katana for battle. It doesnt means I have no use for it,does it ?

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I speak from experience here Shao. How much experience do you have, other then supposed "gung/kung fu" training?
Well,as said my teacher..and very correctly said : 'why should you speak of your experience ? Fool will not believe you, smart will,and will use it against you. Say your school's name after battle,not before'
Althought,I dont think we will fight,as well I dont think you will believe me..But if you are asking for it,I expect you want to hear some answer.
I was trained in school practicing budo - this included judo,aikido,aikijujutsu and classical karate. Basic physical training in these begun in my age of 4. Training in kendo and bodo i received begun in my age of 7 (before the weapons were too heavy ) There also were basics of ninjutsu - mostly physical training,not fighting techniques, daito-ru and some other stuff.You could say,this sounds funny .. well,my favorite books starting at age of 6 were 'Book of Five Rings' by Musashi,and Sun Tzu's 'Art of War'. Very interesting,these are. Speaking of 'moral' training - well,i still managed not to use anything of what I learned against people not in my Dojo,in training.This (at least for me and my teacher) means more then any knowledge I achieved. Gung fu - I started learning it at age of 11,after my first teachers death.Mostly shaolin's style of dragon (thats where I got my name,from my second teacher). Now I realized that most japanese styles actually were coming from older chinese ones.Besides,I found chinese hand-to-hand combat arts more to my liking.They are more peaceful.And this doesnt means they are weaker.

Now,if you would believed at least in half of what I told..
but dont worry,i have more then enough experience to speak of what we are speaking now.
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Old 06-04-2002, 07:30 PM   #35
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...would okinawate be *deadly* enough for you ? or its not ? one blow with fingers piercing metallic armor is too weak for you ?
You lie.

The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty.

I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.

-D
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Old 06-04-2002, 09:32 PM   #36
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While my own experience is primarily with Korean "kicking" (the details not being important because I've no need to claim that the water is either cold or deep.)

The best martial advice I've ever heard came from my DI, Sgt. Tibedoux. Tib was a lee-zee-anna boy to the core, and he taught us that the best move we could do was to quickly place our dogtags into our mouths and bite down. Thus saving the medic some work.

As Tib would say, "You go han' han' cowmbat, you dea! Member' you go han' han', you gunna die. Bess' weapun fo' han' han' cowmbat is a loaded fowty-fi, Member' tow brin' yo' loaded fowty fi to any han' han' combat."

~Mandrake
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:08 PM   #37
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As long as we are comparing styles, I thought I would throw my own 2 cents in.  I have been training in various martial arts for over 14 years and have my own opinions.

Mostly, I've only seen a discussion of the "Eastern" arts, but there are many others that are quite formidable and therefore definitely worth mention.  My own opinion of the eastern arts is that they are too rooted in tradition and are not very practical for today's fighter.  If you disagree with me then you can take it up with Bruce Lee, who developed Jeet Kune Do, because HE felt most martials arts were impractical.  JKD is widely accepted as a major breakthrough in bringing MA into the 20th century.

Speaking of major breakthroughs, everyone discovered in the first five UFCs how great Brazilian Ju Jitsu was for a one-on-one fight.  Granted, BJJ has its limitations, especially when fighting multiple opponents.  However, BJJ is an invaluable tool when the fight heads onto the ground (as many of them do).

Finally, though it has been around for over 50 years, Krav Maga is recently starting to get some serious attention.  This is because it is one of the most effective, realistic fighting techniques ever developed.  Created for the Israeli Defense Forces, Krav Maga is now taught to law enforcement agencies around the globe (including counter-terrorism and S.W.A.T. teams).  The "traditional" arts have a lot to offer in the way of discipline, flexibility, and both mental and physical fitness.  However, if you are looking to kick some ass and defend yourself against a mugger, Krav Maga is definitely for you.

http://www.kravmaga.com

Therefore, any discussion regarding what martial arts will make you the best fighter that does not mention JKD, BJJ, and KM is seriously lacking in the realism department.
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Old 06-05-2002, 07:39 AM   #38
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You lie.

The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty.

I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.
You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.

dont make any judgements too quickly.
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Old 06-06-2002, 02:55 PM   #39
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You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.
Wow. I never expected this level of stupidity from even you, Shao. The human hand cannot approach the level of "hardness" as to equal metal. It is a structural/material impossility using simple physics and material density. Human flesh is extremely weak structurally - its main intent is to "hold stuff in", so to speak. While it can be "hardened" via calluses and/or scar tissue, it cannot become even as strong as a hardwood when compared in a density and/or strength test. And definitely not a metal. Human bone, no matter how dense it is, cannot approach the structural density and tensile strength of tempered metal. One of the most known "feats" of martial artists is breaking wood with their bare hands. The reasoning is simple - wood has a grain. Watch the wood break - it breaks along the grain of the wood. If the wood had no grain, a la metal, the persons fist would likely be damaged. All it takes is mere focus to a single point of the power behind the punch, and the force will quite often break the wood along the grain. It takes conditioning to not damage the hand, however. But, the human hand cannot be conditioned to pierce metal.

Human flesh and bone has severe limitations on how strong it can be conditioned. Tempered metal should not have the weak spots that can be seen in wood grains. If you want to argue that they were breaking through improperly tempered metal, then sure, I can punch a hole through a tank. Shao, I can honestly say you have no martial arts experience from this conversation. Human flesh and bone cannot ever be conditioned to be harder then tempered metal. Even initiates to many arts realize that within a few months of training. I think KaVir, and others, will agree with me here when I say you are utterly full of it - both in your claims of martial arts experience, and your claims of the human hand.

-D
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Old 06-06-2002, 09:17 PM   #40
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Human hands pierce metal armor?
Tensile strength?  What does a material's tensile strength have to do with a shearing action?  Wouldn't that be its shear stress or bending stress?

If martial artists can "focus" a blow to hit the grain of wood, and stress (no matter what regime) is expressed as allowable force over area.....could not the area of the blow be small enough to exceed a material's yield strength?

What is tempered metal?  Is it heat tempered, work hardened, annealed, quenched, forged, or just refined?  Hardened metals tend to be much more brittle than their unhardened ductile versions.  They are also more scratch resistant, yet fail at lower stresses.  Wouldn't that make them more likely to fail from a blunt blow?

Who's master / trainer is a higher "daaaaaaaaaan"?  I'm sure that figures in to all this somehow too.
~Mandrake
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