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Old 09-24-2002, 08:19 AM   #41
Jazuela
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Also - just to note, GSIII wasn't always a "Massively" multiplayer game when they first started out. When AOL went from an hourly rate to unlimited monthly, the game server used to crash pretty regularly. It couldn't support the volume. So to be fair, the claim that it's a "massively" multiplayer game can't really be true til some time after 1996, after Simu's original headquarters burned up and they moved to their current location with a new server.

Massively, meaning consistently (or persistently? <grin> ) supporting well over 100 players logged in at any given moment.

R - who remembers very well getting the echo from staff telling all comp account players to logoff to free server space for the paying customers.
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Old 09-24-2002, 09:47 AM   #42
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All that has been asked is for you to present a game that has BOTH run longer and is bigger both in terms of game size AND in terms of player base.

I've searched the web, the only games that are bigger are the new flavor of the month graphical rpgs. Yes there are a good many games just as old and maybe a slight bit older then the simu games, but none of them can even come close to presenting as expansive a game or playerbase as simutronics. The Largest game after simutronics that I've found is Dragon's gate, their numbers at peak time are lower then the simutronics games at low-peak time.

This doesn't make the game better however, I've played Dragon's Gate and a few of the other Muds out there. They each have their own flavor and attract a different type of playerbase and are all great games in their own right.

However these facts do support and make certain that those quotes are in fact true, and the only way you can really argue with them is to break up the quote into several other quotes, which in turn nullifies your entire argument.
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:25 AM   #43
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As I've said, Gemstone didn't become a Massively Multiplayer game until around 1996. There existed massively multiplayer games prior to this, some of which are still running.
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Old 09-24-2002, 11:05 AM   #44
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This is 2002 not 1996, and at the time, with the population trends for games, Gemstone was a massive multiplayer game because its population was high compared to other games out there. Just because 200 people isn't a big deal now, doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal 6 years ago, hell pretty much any game out there would have killed to have a playerbase of 200 people total in 1996 let alone having it at peak time.
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Old 09-24-2002, 11:33 AM   #45
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You're missing the point. The question is whether or not there exists any games that were massively multiplayer PRIOR to Gemstone, that are still running. The reason for the question is to determine whether or not GS is in fact the oldest AND longest-running massively multiplayer game. The two are inclusive by virtue of Simutronics' claim. If only one is true, then the claim is untrue. The claim is untrue, because GS is NOT the oldest massively multiplayer game. They are definitely one of the oldest, but certainly not THE oldest, since they were not massive until 1996.
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:26 PM   #46
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Samson @ Sep. 20 2002,6:10 pm)
Of course it happens IRL and elsewhere on the net. But we also have regulatory bodies IRL that will pursue blatantely false claims. It's called the Federal Trade Commission here in the US.
The FTC and the local Better Business Bureaus (who handle most consumer complaints about deceptive advertising practices) have paid employees.

THE solution to MUDs that lie, cheat, and engage in other behaviour that a player may find unacceptable is right here on this board and others like it. Word of mouth has it's effect.

I will say that I do not give much creedence to rankings. Voting scams like rewarding players for their vote, vote bots and such are only a small part of it for me. The primary reason I do not pay much attention to rankings is because I am the only player qualified to judge wether or not a game is fun for me.

I will liken it to movie critics: Siskel and Ebert often gave thumbs down critiques to movies I enjoyed. Of course I wasn't picking them apart like them, I was just there to be entertained.

I would look at any pronouncements by any group or committee only for facts such as "This MUD claims to be 100% customized and we found MANY rooms where this was patently false." Any subjective content such as "This MUD claims to have a rich RP environment, that was non-existant for us," I would give much less consideration.

What makes me happy with a MUD is not necessarily the same as what another would find enjoyable. All we can do is share our opinions and try MUDs that sound appealing to us individually rather than some committee or group that may or may not share our notion of a great playing experience.

Just my two bits worth.
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Old 09-25-2002, 02:48 PM   #47
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Jazuela, I've never heard any official definition of "massively" in respect to muds, other than the MMORPGs (which presumably just called themselves that because it sounds cooler than "graphical mud"). The definition of "massively" is therefore a subjective one, and could reasonably be applied to any game which supports more than a few players (eg Gauntlet is a multiplayer game, because it can support up to 4 players - a "massively multiplayer" version of Gauntlet might be one that could support up to a dozen players). By that definition, every mud would be a "massively multiplayer text-based game".

Caledric, I do not have to counter both parts of a claim in order to prove it false. If someone says "this car is the cheapest and fastest car in the world", I can disprove that claim by either (1) finding a car which is cheaper, or (2) finding a car which is faster. I do not have to find a car which is both cheaper and faster.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:01 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Sep. 25 2002,1:48 pm)
Jazuela, I've never heard any official definition of "massively" in respect to muds, other than the MMORPGs (which presumably just called themselves that because it sounds cooler than "graphical mud").  The definition of "massively" is therefore a subjective one, and could reasonably be applied to any game which supports more than a few players (eg Gauntlet is a multiplayer game, because it can support up to 4 players - a "massively multiplayer" version of Gauntlet might be one that could support up to a dozen players).  By that definition, every mud would be a "massively multiplayer text-based game".
Let's hear it for 'graphical MUD' over the inane MMORPG, for that's what Everquest and company are: graphical MUDs. Same animal, different size.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:02 PM   #49
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By that definition, every mud would be a "massively multiplayer text-based game".
How so? You can talk semantics all you want, however, lets be realistic.

If I'm talking about say.. a online flight simulator. I'm not going to say something like, Jane's is a massive flight simulator. I'm going to say AW or Warbirds is.

You take what you are talking about in context. If I say GS3/DR are the largest massive multiplayer muds, do you honestly expect to counter that? Even in a server crash (which are extremely rare now) we have 100 players on within a minute or two at most.

The term massively changes with the times as well. When "online" gaming first became somewhat popular on Genie, the numbers generated by Gemstone and Air Warrior where out of this world. Yet now? There a drop in the bucket. Hardly worth considering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caledric, I do not have to counter both parts of a claim in order to prove it false.  If someone says "this car is the cheapest and fastest car in the world", I can disprove that claim by either (1) finding a car which is cheaper, or (2) finding a car which is faster.  I do not have to find a car which is both cheaper and faster.
Actually you do. If you say "I am selling the cheapest fast car" you can find a car thats cheaper, but is it as fast? You can also find a fast car, but is it as cheap? Unless you negate both the comments, they still hold true.

You have to not only find a CHEAPEST car, but it has to be FAST as well. Fairly simple concept here.

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Old 09-25-2002, 04:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by
Actually you do. If you say "I am selling the cheapest fast car" you can find a car thats cheaper, but is it as fast? You can also find a fast car, but is it as cheap? Unless you negate both the comments, they still hold true.
But there's a logical difference between "the cheapest and fastest car" and "the cheapest fast car." And it is the former that is the proper logical analogy in this case.

In order for someone to disprove that your car was the "cheapest and fastest," all they have to do is demonstrate that there is at least one other car out there that is either faster or cheaper, at which point all you have is the fastest car which also happens to be cheap, or the cheapest car which also happens to be fast.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Xabaras @ Sep. 25 2002,3:02 pm)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caledric, I do not have to counter both parts of a claim in order to prove it false.  If someone says "this car is the cheapest and fastest car in the world", I can disprove that claim by either (1) finding a car which is cheaper, or (2) finding a car which is faster.  I do not have to find a car which is both cheaper and faster.
Actually you do. If you say "I am selling the cheapest fast car" you can find a car thats cheaper, but is it as fast? You can also find a fast car, but is it as cheap? Unless you negate both the comments, they still hold true.

You have to not only find a CHEAPEST car, but it has to be FAST as well. Fairly simple concept here.

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Actually, you are wrong because you are comparing apples and oranges. To say that something is the cheapest and the fastest is to assign it two definite qualities, i.e. that no car is at the same time faster and cheaper. You, however, merely assigned it one definite quality (cheaper) but one subjective quality (fast). This throws off the analysis because "fast" is a subjective term and is therefore up for interpretation. However, "fastest" and "cheapest" are quite clear in their meaning and therefore assign a definite claim of quality. Being "cheapest" and "fast" allows for interpretation and debate. The former does not.

Nice try though.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:35 PM   #52
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> > By that definition, every mud would be a
> > "massively multiplayer text-based game".
>
> How so?

Because every mud has the potential for far more players than most multiplayer games.  Gauntlet is a multiplayer game.  Tekkan is a multiplayer game.  Halo is a multiplayer game.  A mud, however, can support *far* more players - and is therefore "massively multiplayer" in comparison.

> You take what you are talking about in context. If
> I say GS3/DR are the largest massive multiplayer
> muds, do you honestly expect to counter that?

MMORPGs are muds as well.  In 1999, Kingdom of the Winds peaked at 12,263 simultaneous users in a single world, using distributed game servers.

> > Caledric, I do not have to counter both parts of a
> > claim in order to prove it false.  If someone says
> > "this car is the cheapest and fastest car in the
> > world", I can disprove that claim by either (1)
> > finding a car which is cheaper, or (2) finding a
> > car which is faster.  I do not have to find a car
> > which is both cheaper and faster.
>
> Actually you do. If you say "I am selling the
> cheapest fast car"

Irrelevent.  The original quote was not "the largest long-running massively multiplayer text-based game ever", it was "the largest and longest running..."
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:54 PM   #53
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Topic starts good on page one, catches my interest, makes me think about 'bragvertising'.

Topic very quickly and... Not unexpectedly becomes a series of heated arguments over wording, and how stupid the other poster is. Without warning, my mind wanders, and I am now thinking about cream-filled pastries.

I don't think policing mud claims is practical, but it does hurt when some mud is falsely claiming something and you can't do anything to correct them. The best correction would be a timeline or rating system impartially done by someone like TMS, to which mudders could refer instead of the advertisement claims made to draw newbies.
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Because every mud has the potential for far more players than most multiplayer games.
I agree that every MUD has potential for far more players.  However, the design of a game, the types of interactions with players, techniques for running events, all of your mechanics are designed in a very different way depending on how many users you expect to entertain simultaneously.  A game designed for 60 players is very different from one designed for 600.  In turn one designed for 600 is different from one designed for 6000.

GemStone III was very different in, not only mechanics, but in the methods that we used to approach everything, back when it served 60 users.

Every game has to potential to serve a massive customer base ... but to do that, the game must transform into something different ... something "massively mutliplayer."

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Old 09-25-2002, 07:00 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Every game has to potential to serve a massive customer base ... but to do that, the game must transform into something different ... something "massively mutliplayer."
Not really.  Quite a few of the stock codebases have the potential to handle hundreds of players; I believe Smaug has been tested with up to 650.

As I said before, the definition of "massively" is subjective.

Imagine if I advertised my mud as "the most popular and longest running multi-user simulated world ever created" - then when someone pointed out that it only had 1 player, and had only been online for a week, I said "Oh, well in my opinion my mud is the only one which qualifies as a 'simulated world'".
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Old 09-25-2002, 07:34 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Sep. 25 2002,6<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]Not really.  Quite a few of the stock codebases have the potential to handle hundreds of players; I believe Smaug has been tested with up to 650.
I was speaking, not in terms of being able to technically handle a large number of users, but rather, in terms of the experience offered.

You're simply deal with different types of issues with higher populations than you do with lower populations.  I'm sure, with your great amount of experience across diverse games you'll agree.  Depending on the size of a population, group dynamics change.

The types of systems, the types of events, and your customer service policies ... these things all change.  And they're not a simple thing to change either.

During it's years of growth between it's time on GEnie (with about 50-100 simultaneous users) and it's time on AOL (with 1,000 - 3,000 simultaneous users) the primary focus HAD to be modifying the game to handle so many users.  Certainly work had to be done on core mechanics and hardware so that the game didn't crash constantly ... but moreover, policy changes went into place ... not just for players, but for staff.  Systems in the game had to be adjusted to account for so many more users.  Techniques for how events were run had to be modified.  And so much more.

There is a lot more to making a game fun and playable than making sure it runs.  You must agree with me there.

The changes took YEARS of time even with an army of dedicated Immortals (we call them GMs), and a dozen or more full time employees.

---

I'm working on a modification to my blurb, which I honestly believe is truthful, but heck ... I'm flexible, and it won't hurt me.

However, I do firmly believe that "massively multiplayer" games are different.

Melissa
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Old 09-25-2002, 08:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I was speaking, not in terms of being able to technically handle a large number of users, but rather, in terms of the experience offered.
<snip>

Quote:
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There is a lot more to making a game fun and playable than making sure it runs. You must agree with me there.
Yes there is, but that's just making it even more subjective. You're saying that in order to be "massively multiplayer", the game must also be "fun" and "playable"? Fun for who? Playable for who? If I find your game boring, does that mean that to me it's not "massively multiplayer"?

As far as I'm concerned, (almost) all muds are "massively multiplayer". They can (almost) all support a "massive" number of players, compared to most multiplayer games. Even online games such as Counterstrike and WarcraftIII can only handle a small number of players compared to most muds - and those, I believe, are what the MMORPGs were comparing themselves to in their claims of "massively multiplayer". They were trying to point out to their audience, many of whom had never even heard of "muds", that they supported far more players than most other multiplayer games.

GS3 is a mud. It has, to my knowledge, the largest online population of any text-based mud. It is also (as far as I can tell) the second longest-running mud around, if you count from the opening date of the original GS.
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