[somied]

Wrong. Consider why plans for nuclear devices are not public information. "Well if everyone knows how to build one, then we're all on equal grounds and the world is a safer place!" Um.. ok?

The same applies to any and all sensitive information that could be used to inflict harm. It is kept on a need-to-know basis only. In this case, administration was the only party that needed to know.

[the_logos]

[Maelgrim]

Helloooo Moron!

Reality check. Vasago is not the only game admin on this site.

This was a matter which had the potential to affect all the games on the list, and thus had the potential to be detrimental to TMS's paying customers. Thus, it is well within the rights of the game administrators to make said information available for general perusement.

It is also well within their rights to decide the medium in which they choose to distribute said information, especially when there exists a risk of similar technique being used again.

Complaining that the information was distributed is like a rapist trying to ban footage of his crime because the video makes his arse look fat. Guess what? You #### up, expect all and sundry to hear about it, especially when it impinges upon others.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce to you,

[The_Disciple]

That's quite possibly the dumbest analogy I've ever read. I'm sorry, dude. You lose the Internet. I wasn't aware it was a competition, but since you've so obviously lost it must have been.

Software and nuclear physics do not have anything in common in this case. Knowledge of how TMS cheating is done could be used to prevent it in the future. That specific cheating method would be very hard to use successfully again now that the details of this method are known. Conversely, knowledge of how to build a nuclear device cannot realistically be used to prevent anyone from building a nuclear device anywhere ever again.

I hate to play the populist card, but there has to come a point when you read this thread and think to yourself, "Maybe I should spend my time someplace where at least some people might agree with my wacked-out point of view."

[Nalog]

Ive played Materia Magica, Ive played Aard, Imperian, Times of Trouble, and most recently MT. Ive thought out of all these MM and MT have been the best games, content wise and player wise. I read all the previous posts and I wouldnt be surprised if Vassago(ryan) knew of it all but I dont know what happened I do remember seeing vote vote vote I do not remember when, I do remember hearing MM had been banned from the voting here, but I was led to believe it was because other sites hated us, I am not sure anymore but I do have to say that Mr. IRE has said nothing but negative about any game that isnt his. If youre games are good you do not need to trash talk. Thats my two cents.

[somied]

@ the_logos:

You obviously missed the part where I said the info was on a "need-to-know" basis, not "completely hidden from everyone" basis. If you're going to attack my points, at least make sure and read them in their entirety. Had you done that, you'd see why your examples don't apply. The chemicals those players used was already widely known before the hearings, hence there was no reason to hide it. Nobody benefits from knowing -how- to count cards because it's not something you can just learn and do; it's more of an inherent 'talent', so to speak.

@ Maelgrim:

The only people that benefit from having knowledge about a traffic exchange website exploit are the admin of the site, and people who want to use the exploit. Thus, common sense tells us that if we want to prevent the exploit from being used we should 1) give the source code to the admin, and 2) prevent potential abusers from getting the source code. Well, guess which one of these -wasn't- accomplished by publically releasing it.

@ The_Disciple:

Please refer to my comment on people like you who can't attack the post, and resort to attacking the poster. Get back to me when you decide to join civil society and participate in a discussion that doesn't involve "LOL UR STUPID. YOU LOST THE INTERNET DOOD HAHAHA".

Oh, and I'm sorry, but the general public having access to the source code of an exploit does not prevent further abuse in any conceivable way. Providing the admin of this site with said source code is the only way to -help- prevent further abuse (if the admin took steps to utilize this info). The only thing accomplished by spreading the knowledge to the public is increasing the chances that someone else will use it. And contrary to the beliefs of a few of you, making the source code known, even to the admin, does not prevent its use, -especially- if it's altered to be better.

For example, it would be quite easy to alter his program to run consistently in the background adding votes gradually over the course of a 24 hour period, rather than in short bursts. This wouldn't be detectable by graphing, and you can probably blame the_logos if it ever happens (not that you would know if it did, unless Adam decides to start logging/checking voter IPs - and even then you could still use a lengthy list of proxies to remain undetected).


[edit] As an aside, this is my last post on this thread, and I won't be reading any responses to it, so feel free to ignore it if you wish.

[Maelgrim]

To quote a very funny movie, Kung Pow;

"I'm concussed and bleeding, thereby making me the victor."

[the_logos]

Perhaps you should read the thread first, before posting. If you had done that, you'd see that I feel Materia Magica is a fine game. I see no relationship between cheating to get votes and the quality of the game. It's only the MM fanbois who keep trying to defend MM's practices by saying, "Well, it's ok, because MM is a good game anyway."

--matt

[Baram]

I've seen Matt say good things about other games before... infact I can't think of anyplace where he has said another game is bad.

What I have seen him do is say X admin makes poor choices, or X admin is a cheating bastard, but never that the game they run is bad...

[the_logos]

From the perspective of a player of games, I'm happy to say that I think certain games are good or bad. I don't see that perspective as particularly helpful though, so I try to look at MUDs from the perspective of a creator, in which case I don't believe there are bad MUDs. There are only MUDs that fail to achieve their goals, and only the creator(s) of a MUD get to define what those goals are.

--matt

[Valg]

1) You're completely incorrect about the chemicals.   Palmiero's drug of choice was only leaked after he was caught, and led to tougher testing and more widespread knowledge about the drug in question and why it implicated his guilt further.  This was important because Palmiero claimed either a false test or accidental exposure to a drug (like a nutritional product)... except stanozolol is used in no legitimate nutritional products, and incredibly reliable tests have existed since before Ben Johnson got caught injecting the same drug.  Leaking the drug in question proved to the public that his thin excuses held no water.

The analogy: Materia Magica has claimed innocence repeatedly, but the facts demonstrate deliberate and repeated involvement by their staff.  By sharing the facts, the community learns that they were not banned due to a grudge or mistake, but rather because they repeatedly broke the rules.

2) Card counting is not an "inherent talent".  That's the dumbest thing I've read in this thread, and not for lack of competition.  Most systems are mathematical methods of tracking the deck's general contents.  You could teach simple systems to any child old enough to do arithmetic without the use of fingers.  (Note: There's nothing illegal in a criminal sense about counting cards, unlike sneaking in loaded dice or otherwise defrauding the casino.  The casinos merely take advantage of their right to refuse service to a customer should they choose.)

Analogy: Spreading knowledge of how these systems work and are detected shows that the casinos aren't just kicking out people who win too much.  They're kicking out people who attempt to generate an "unfair" (by the casino's standard, at least) advantage in their games, and by doing so they can keep the payoff odds fair for other customers.  Publicizing the hows and whys of why Materia Magica got caught deflates their false claims of victimhood by you and your one colleague.

The point of spreading this information is to simply say: Materia Magica was booted for a legitimate reason.  Here's the evidence, so you can decide for yourselves.

Me?  I won't miss the cheating ****s.

[Nalog]

Perhaps you should read what I wrote before you respond to my post, I read every single post, all 11 pages (now 12) Im not denying MM cheated. In fact it wouldn't surprise me. But Ill say that the playerbase didnt know and by people like you rehashing this years later does nothing but hurt the playerbase, which as an admin isn't that the group you like to protect/make happy... You do have pay for play... and is it the fact you've been accused of cheating that ****es you off?

[the_logos]

Where in any of my posts did I say anything about the playerbase? The playerbase is distinct from the MUD administration and pointing out how the MUD administration cheated isn't reflective of the playerbase at all. I use Windows, for instance, and I certainly don't feel scarred by accusations that Microsoft used monopolistic tactics. Should American schools not teach about the destruction of the Native Americans, because it might make present-day Americans feel uncomfortable? Give me a break.

I don't care about making MM players happy. That's Vassago's job.

Being accused of cheating doesn't bother me. We don't cheat, and that's why we're still on TMS, unlike, say, Materia Magica. Results matter. Bull****, empty accusations do not.

--matt

[Ilkidarios]

Good ol' Matt, he always goes straight to insulting the individual.

[Nalog]

how do you run a mud? You totally missed my point. The end. I didnt say that admin reflects the playerbase, but by harping on the admin and bringing to the surface past discretions is going to cause less new players which hurts the player base. But being the admin of another mud I guess that is your goal... You dont care whether the players are happy as long as you got their money. And just because youre on TMS doesnt mean you havent cheated, just means you havent got nailed yet, but wait you have! In due time In due time.

[Valg]

What's my motive, then? Carrion Fields doesn't charge money for anything in the game. We've never even been accused of cheating in the voting to my knowledge. We won't even mention voting inside the game, let alone set up annoy-bots or smack you with globals. (Half because we won't breach our RP environment, and half because players find intrusions annoying. It boggles me that anyone does the globals, honestly.)

You might want to consider the alternative: Well-advertised penalties with proven enforcement records deter future cheating. Admins see that Materia Magica was caught and banned, and say to themselves "Huh. Better stay on the level, lest Synozeer show up with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch." It also reinforces the importance of the voting list when people know that steps are taken to keep it a legitimate reflection of player interest.

[Threshold]

Cry me a river. That's the breaks when the admin of a mud decides to cheat. Everyone else here has a vested interest in preventing people from cheating - especially in the way Vasgao did since he was stealing position without sending traffic. Part of that is exposing cheaters, sharing information that proves they were indeed cheating, and publicising methods so they are easier to detect in the future.

If you want to blame someone for "hurting the playerbase", then put the blame where it belongs: on Vasago. Not only was it his cheating that started everything, but his infantile refusal to own up to his behavior is what necessitates the publication of "proof" when it becomes available.


Hi Vasago! That is exactly what Vasago always says. Of course, since he's nothing but a cheater, he cannot even fathom the possibility of people NOT cheating (as we've seen from his discussion logs).

[Baram]

Little off topic, but lets say I, as a mud admin, discover one of my players is trying to cheat on TMS. I explain to him how this can hurt our game, but he still does it. Can I contact Adam personally and request he ban X ip's(if I know which ones he's using, obviously) to atempt to stop him?

Disclaimer: Since our mud is in development, this is obviously just a question.

[KaVir]

Or the flip-side of the coin - you **** off one of your players, who decides to get his revenge by pumping up your votes in such a way that it's obviously being done artificially.

I guess the best way would be to contact Adam ASAP, hopefully before someone else reports it to him. But if he does discover it before you, be honest about it - don't try to explain it away as a normal voting pattern, or that everyone else cheats, etc.

[Davairus]

The rules say this:

My experience is he doesn't offer to ban IPs, he tells you to make the player take down their script instead. If you've banned the player and he's still voting for your mud, well, that's when he'd have to ban their IP. Just a tip, it'd be a good idea to ban a player like that anyway..