Tavern of the Blue Hand

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 05:03 AM

Slander is spoken - libel is written, and doesn't apply in this case, because it also has to be false.

And as for 'absolutely no evidence beyond hearsay', that's absolute rubbish - I've provided statistical comparisons of the Medievia code vs Merc 1.0, and I have scanned copy of a statement signed by Vryce under penalty of perjury in which he states that the code I reviewed is "Medievia 4.1" - and that's without all the backing views of many other people who have seen the code (including at least one person who coded for Medievia). All this information has been available for years, specifically because of people claiming the sort of thing you're claiming now.

But tell me, if you believed there was no evidence, and that posting such claims about people without evidence is unprofessional, why did you repeatedly post things like:

"There seems no doubt that Medievia is violating the license. They may or may not be violating the profit part of the license (we have no way of knowing whether they are showing a profit or not) but they certainly do seem to be violating the bits involving proper credit."

And:

"Medievia IS violating the DIKU license. It's not including the proper credits to the DIKU authors...None of these facts are really in question."

You see, most of do know the facts, have plenty of evidence, and have used that as the basis for our opinions. There are other muds which I strongly suspect of violating the Diku licence as well, but without any evidence to back it up I prefer not to say anything.

But if you posted your above statements about Medievia without reading the evidence, then by your own reasoning that makes you less professional than the rest of us in this thread. And for the first time in as long as I can remember, I actually agree with you on this point.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 06:07 AM

welcor · 05-08-2005, 07:57 AM

Well, yes. It does, actually. Using the code and not following the license (however it is written) constitutes stealing.
Same thing as installing a program and breaking the EULA.
The DIKU license might seem irrelevant to you today, but that's not what we're debating. You broke it, knowing full well that you were stealing. Playing down the severity of the act due to the amount of time passed doesn't make you look better.

No wonder you have been called medthievia on so many boards.

Oh, and the_logos - I guess you do this to get those game links in your sig displayed? All publicity is good publicity, right ?

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 08:26 AM

It's good to see they've at least dropped the "we're not a Diku derivative" line, and moved on to the "who cares if we don't follow ther licence". That way we can all just agree that they're a bunch of thieves, and hopefully not spam the site with too many flame wars.

prof1515 · 05-08-2005, 09:06 AM

Medievia should be removed and banned once more and the IRE crap should be as well. Liars, thieves, and shameless-self-promoting producers of such sub-standard games only make the MUD community look bad. We're all better off with out that filth.

Take care,

Jason

Qud · 05-08-2005, 10:39 AM

IRE is, as far as I'm aware, absolutely and completely legitimate.
If they have their own codebase which is made from scratch, and there are no licensing issues, there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to even charge people money for making characters. Keeping money-bought advantages balanced so that regular players aren't massively overpowered is also a good thing.
I don't like the concept of any MUD charging money, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Iron Realms.

Seeing Medthievia here, however, made me quite upset. I don't think they should be featured here, shameless bastard corrupt lying thieves that they are. "So what if we stole the codebase, it was X years ago and we added Y lines of code since"? Go to ####.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 10:42 AM

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 11:07 AM

Don't confuse being unwilling to sue you with not caring. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt (one of the Diku team) has said that "Vryce was indeed one of the major reasons i stopped contributing to the community, and found other places to spend my energy" - and he's not the only one. Many mud developers have chosen not to contribute to the mud community any more, citing your mud and those like it as the reason.

Well obviously those who play it don't, or they wouldn't be playing - but many of those who have learned the truth for themselves have since left, including staff members such as Omawarisan (former level 140 Medievia god) who stated "For years I have believed Medievia to be righteous in its claims to be original and free of copyrighted materials (including both the code, and the recent massive work down to remove copyrighted references in zones, monsters, items, etc.). It now appears Medievia is outwardly original and copyright-free, but inwardly I highly, HIGHLY, question the origins of many of lines of code" and Thranz (former Medievia coder) who stated "I left because I didn't want any more of my work (at the code level and the building level) associated with Medievia.com. I don't need code comparisons or audits or God to come down to Earth to know who is telling the truth. The code is DIKU, I know because I *worked* on the code".

The various gaming sites who take your money for advertising don't care?! Well gee, what a big surprise!

You want to know why we care? Because we respect the work of others, and their contributions to our hobby - and people like you undermine all of that. "Who cares?" you say - but if it hadn't been for Diku (and Merc) you wouldn't even have had a mud to start from. Now think what you might have had, if you hadn't stopped the Diku team from contributing further to the community. Think what progress might have been made if the Merc team and others had continued developing and releasing their updates.

Because you represent the worst aspects of the mud community.

People show contempt towards you not because your mud is run a business, but because it is build on the ripped-off work of others. You've taken someone else's efforts which they gave freely, stripped out the credits, and claimed it as your own - then made a living off it.

But you are, legally speaking, exactly that.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 11:45 AM

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 11:51 AM

Nothing new that needed to be stated; an outdated mud, operated by scum who care nothing about the community you damage with your theft. If you didn't want me to reiterate the facts, why even ask?

Angie · 05-08-2005, 11:56 AM

I can understand why Medievia was readmitted on the list - I'm not happy that it was, but we don't live in a perfect world. So I just sighed, didn't comment on it, and thought to myself that they could at least keep a lower profile.

The attitude you show in this thread really makes me cringe though, Soleil. Cut down the smileys, you have nothing to feel smug about.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 12:20 PM

Sure I do, I have a wonderful life, a wonderful family and a very successful business. I have a lot to be happy about. Just because there are some of you who hate my business and scorn everything we do doesn't really bother me at all. As I said in my last post, if you chose to live in the past, so be it. Please don't expect me or Medievia to though. There is no reason why we should have to keep a low profile, we have one of the most successful games in the MUD world. I'm proud of it despite the things you people believe and say.

Samson · 05-08-2005, 01:07 PM

Wow. I don't normally get myself involved in this issue, and I hadn't planned on even commenting about this, but ####. Do you not even see the forest for the trees here? Do you not realize why it is people hold the animosity toward you, Mike, and your game when you make such statements? Would you not be upset if I came along, stole your code, removed the credits, and then put it up on the net and claimed it was my own work and started charging people money to play?

Going on to state that your PROUD of being a criminal is the realy disturbing part though. I've never seen you or Mike make such a blatent display of your disregard for yourselves, the community, and the Diku/Merc authors.

It's also equally amazing to me that any site operator would willingly accept money from these people when they display such an open contempt for everything the site is about.

Wik · 05-08-2005, 01:27 PM

I wonder if Michael Jackson still considers himself African-American.

On a more serious note, though. Does saying that you've brutally conquered your enemies (the fact that you've out-bullied and out-lasted the DIKU developers) mean you're okay people, or that what you did isn't very, very wrong, and worthy of censure and scorn?

I think this is simply a case of the winners attempting to re-write the history books. Personally, I tell the players of my game the story of Medievia every few years, just so it's never forgotten.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 01:47 PM

Laugh, proud to be a criminal? Where did I say that? I love how you people twist everything to suit your needs. YOU (that can be directed toward anyone who keep these "methievia" claims alive) believe us to be criminals.

I am proud of the business that Mike and I work hard to maintain. I am proud of the progress that Medievia has made throughout the years despite all this mess. I am proud of the gods who volunteer countless hours of their lives towards the future of Medievia. I am proud of the players who log in everyday and help move Medievia forward. I am proud of the Mud site owners who realize that your claims are a part of the past and see that it is time to move forward.

Ok, I really am done for the day. It's time for me to spend some time with my family who is proud of me for being the person I am, not the criminal some of you believe me to be.

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 01:51 PM

And do you think your children will be proud when they grow up, surf the net, and discover that mummy and daddy have made a living off something they stole from someone else?

Traithe · 05-08-2005, 01:55 PM

Wow, I didn't realize you were a lawyer.

It's a shame the DIKU guys are so uninterested in enforcing their copyright. I'd bet they could even find a pretty decent pro bono attorney for a case like this; even if they couldn't, they wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if they didn't prevail with the suit. You, on the other hand, would stand to lose your livelihood and a significant chunk of your life for over the past 10 years or so. Plus, with all the insane criminalizing-of-copyright-violation statutes flying around lately, maybe more, who knows.

So, yeah. Be as smug and shameless as you like about it; just hope, for your sake, that they don't change their mind.

Soleil · 05-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Ok, really last post...

Our lawyers HAVE looked at the license and have assured Mike that it is poorly written, full of holes, and could not stand up in court. So, I really don't think there's anything to worry about there.

Happy Mother's Day!

Traithe · 05-08-2005, 02:05 PM

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 02:06 PM

Teacher to Kid: And what do your parents do for a living?

Kid: Well, they stole the university project of some students, ripped out the credits, and passed it off as their own. Then they tell people its free, but once the people have played for a while, they discover they have to give lots of money in order to compete!

Teacher to Kid: You must be so proud!

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05-08-2005, 05:03 AM	#21
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Slander is spoken - libel is written, and doesn't apply in this case, because it also has to be false. And as for 'absolutely no evidence beyond hearsay', that's absolute rubbish - I've provided statistical comparisons of the Medievia code vs Merc 1.0, and I have scanned copy of a statement signed by Vryce under penalty of perjury in which he states that the code I reviewed is "Medievia 4.1" - and that's without all the backing views of many other people who have seen the code (including at least one person who coded for Medievia). All this information has been available for years, specifically because of people claiming the sort of thing you're claiming now. But tell me, if you believed there was no evidence, and that posting such claims about people without evidence is unprofessional, why did you repeatedly post things like: "There seems no doubt that Medievia is violating the license. They may or may not be violating the profit part of the license (we have no way of knowing whether they are showing a profit or not) but they certainly do seem to be violating the bits involving proper credit." And: "Medievia IS violating the DIKU license. It's not including the proper credits to the DIKU authors...None of these facts are really in question." You see, most of do know the facts, have plenty of evidence, and have used that as the basis for our opinions. There are other muds which I strongly suspect of violating the Diku licence as well, but without any evidence to back it up I prefer not to say anything. But if you posted your above statements about Medievia without reading the evidence, then by your own reasoning that makes you less professional than the rest of us in this thread. And for the first time in as long as I can remember, I actually agree with you on this point.

05-08-2005, 06:07 AM	#22
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

05-08-2005, 07:57 AM	#23
welcor Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aarhus, Denmark, Europe Posts: 59	Well, yes. It does, actually. Using the code and not following the license (however it is written) constitutes stealing. Same thing as installing a program and breaking the EULA. The DIKU license might seem irrelevant to you today, but that's not what we're debating. You broke it, knowing full well that you were stealing. Playing down the severity of the act due to the amount of time passed doesn't make you look better. No wonder you have been called medthievia on so many boards. Oh, and the_logos - I guess you do this to get those game links in your sig displayed? All publicity is good publicity, right ?

05-08-2005, 08:26 AM	#24
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	It's good to see they've at least dropped the "we're not a Diku derivative" line, and moved on to the "who cares if we don't follow ther licence". That way we can all just agree that they're a bunch of thieves, and hopefully not spam the site with too many flame wars.

05-08-2005, 09:06 AM	#25
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 791	Medievia should be removed and banned once more and the IRE crap should be as well. Liars, thieves, and shameless-self-promoting producers of such sub-standard games only make the MUD community look bad. We're all better off with out that filth. Take care, Jason

05-08-2005, 10:39 AM	#26
Qud New Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 4	IRE is, as far as I'm aware, absolutely and completely legitimate. If they have their own codebase which is made from scratch, and there are no licensing issues, there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to even charge people money for making characters. Keeping money-bought advantages balanced so that regular players aren't massively overpowered is also a good thing. I don't like the concept of any MUD charging money, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Iron Realms. Seeing Medthievia here, however, made me quite upset. I don't think they should be featured here, shameless bastard corrupt lying thieves that they are. "So what if we stole the codebase, it was X years ago and we added Y lines of code since"? Go to ####.

05-08-2005, 10:42 AM	#27
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

05-08-2005, 11:07 AM	#28
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Don't confuse being unwilling to sue you with not caring. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt (one of the Diku team) has said that "Vryce was indeed one of the major reasons i stopped contributing to the community, and found other places to spend my energy" - and he's not the only one. Many mud developers have chosen not to contribute to the mud community any more, citing your mud and those like it as the reason. Well obviously those who play it don't, or they wouldn't be playing - but many of those who have learned the truth for themselves have since left, including staff members such as Omawarisan (former level 140 Medievia god) who stated "For years I have believed Medievia to be righteous in its claims to be original and free of copyrighted materials (including both the code, and the recent massive work down to remove copyrighted references in zones, monsters, items, etc.). It now appears Medievia is outwardly original and copyright-free, but inwardly I highly, HIGHLY, question the origins of many of lines of code" and Thranz (former Medievia coder) who stated "I left because I didn't want any more of my work (at the code level and the building level) associated with Medievia.com. I don't need code comparisons or audits or God to come down to Earth to know who is telling the truth. The code is DIKU, I know because I worked on the code". The various gaming sites who take your money for advertising don't care?! Well gee, what a big surprise! You want to know why we care? Because we respect the work of others, and their contributions to our hobby - and people like you undermine all of that. "Who cares?" you say - but if it hadn't been for Diku (and Merc) you wouldn't even have had a mud to start from. Now think what you might have had, if you hadn't stopped the Diku team from contributing further to the community. Think what progress might have been made if the Merc team and others had continued developing and releasing their updates. Because you represent the worst aspects of the mud community. People show contempt towards you not because your mud is run a business, but because it is build on the ripped-off work of others. You've taken someone else's efforts which they gave freely, stripped out the credits, and claimed it as your own - then made a living off it. But you are, legally speaking, exactly that.

05-08-2005, 11:45 AM	#29
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147

05-08-2005, 11:51 AM	#30
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Nothing new that needed to be stated; an outdated mud, operated by scum who care nothing about the community you damage with your theft. If you didn't want me to reiterate the facts, why even ask?

05-08-2005, 11:56 AM	#31
Angie Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Prague Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 134	I can understand why Medievia was readmitted on the list - I'm not happy that it was, but we don't live in a perfect world. So I just sighed, didn't comment on it, and thought to myself that they could at least keep a lower profile. The attitude you show in this thread really makes me cringe though, Soleil. Cut down the smileys, you have nothing to feel smug about.

05-08-2005, 12:20 PM	#32
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	Sure I do, I have a wonderful life, a wonderful family and a very successful business. I have a lot to be happy about. Just because there are some of you who hate my business and scorn everything we do doesn't really bother me at all. As I said in my last post, if you chose to live in the past, so be it. Please don't expect me or Medievia to though. There is no reason why we should have to keep a low profile, we have one of the most successful games in the MUD world. I'm proud of it despite the things you people believe and say.

05-08-2005, 01:07 PM	#33
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249	Wow. I don't normally get myself involved in this issue, and I hadn't planned on even commenting about this, but ####. Do you not even see the forest for the trees here? Do you not realize why it is people hold the animosity toward you, Mike, and your game when you make such statements? Would you not be upset if I came along, stole your code, removed the credits, and then put it up on the net and claimed it was my own work and started charging people money to play? Going on to state that your PROUD of being a criminal is the realy disturbing part though. I've never seen you or Mike make such a blatent display of your disregard for yourselves, the community, and the Diku/Merc authors. It's also equally amazing to me that any site operator would willingly accept money from these people when they display such an open contempt for everything the site is about.

05-08-2005, 01:27 PM	#34
Wik Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: OtherSpace Posts: 140	I wonder if Michael Jackson still considers himself African-American. On a more serious note, though. Does saying that you've brutally conquered your enemies (the fact that you've out-bullied and out-lasted the DIKU developers) mean you're okay people, or that what you did isn't very, very wrong, and worthy of censure and scorn? I think this is simply a case of the winners attempting to re-write the history books. Personally, I tell the players of my game the story of Medievia every few years, just so it's never forgotten.

05-08-2005, 01:47 PM	#35
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	Laugh, proud to be a criminal? Where did I say that? I love how you people twist everything to suit your needs. YOU (that can be directed toward anyone who keep these "methievia" claims alive) believe us to be criminals. I am proud of the business that Mike and I work hard to maintain. I am proud of the progress that Medievia has made throughout the years despite all this mess. I am proud of the gods who volunteer countless hours of their lives towards the future of Medievia. I am proud of the players who log in everyday and help move Medievia forward. I am proud of the Mud site owners who realize that your claims are a part of the past and see that it is time to move forward. Ok, I really am done for the day. It's time for me to spend some time with my family who is proud of me for being the person I am, not the criminal some of you believe me to be.

05-08-2005, 01:51 PM	#36
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	And do you think your children will be proud when they grow up, surf the net, and discover that mummy and daddy have made a living off something they stole from someone else?

05-08-2005, 01:55 PM	#37
Traithe Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Name: Kite Posts: 131	Wow, I didn't realize you were a lawyer. It's a shame the DIKU guys are so uninterested in enforcing their copyright. I'd bet they could even find a pretty decent pro bono attorney for a case like this; even if they couldn't, they wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if they didn't prevail with the suit. You, on the other hand, would stand to lose your livelihood and a significant chunk of your life for over the past 10 years or so. Plus, with all the insane criminalizing-of-copyright-violation statutes flying around lately, maybe more, who knows. So, yeah. Be as smug and shameless as you like about it; just hope, for your sake, that they don't change their mind.

05-08-2005, 02:02 PM	#38
Soleil Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 147	Ok, really last post... Our lawyers HAVE looked at the license and have assured Mike that it is poorly written, full of holes, and could not stand up in court. So, I really don't think there's anything to worry about there. Happy Mother's Day!

05-08-2005, 02:05 PM	#39
Traithe Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Name: Kite Posts: 131

05-08-2005, 02:06 PM	#40
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Teacher to Kid: And what do your parents do for a living? Kid: Well, they stole the university project of some students, ripped out the credits, and passed it off as their own. Then they tell people its free, but once the people have played for a while, they discover they have to give lots of money in order to compete! Teacher to Kid: You must be so proud!

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