![]() |
#1 |
New Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2
![]() |
Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Hello there, I'd like to talk about a problem I've seen when starting play on an unfamiliar mud. There's nothing quite as frustrating as rolling up a character, playing for several hours, and then discovering that a choice made at char gen (such as an attribute choice or race/class combination) is far less than optimal. Equally discomfitting is learning (after the fact) about unwritten rules that experience players know; for example, an experience player might know that maxing wisdom is very important in the early levels to maximise your skill practices; to not do so would leave a character at a mechanical disadvantage.
Let's take the above examples as examples - I'm aware they are pretty system specific but the message remains clear - some MUDs have a learning curve that can really screw over new players. When I join a new MUD I don't want to have to reroll after several hours having learnt the intricacies of the system - I want my new character to have a fair chance. Two ways this could be achieved are better documentation (if a high wis is important for my fighter - let me know about it) and better systems (allow players to retrain or simply not have a system that can penalize lack of knowledge - have skill points based on level, not on attributes - train through usage as opposed to practices, etc). Have you experienced this problem before? Have you seen MUDs that suffer from these problems or perhaps MUDs that avoid them well? Let me know. Svarn. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 361
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
First off Svarn welcome to TMS. Good topic.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here a bit and say that MUDs in a sense are designed for you to fail. Much of the fun of playing a long-form game like a MUD is learning its intricacies, and in a large sense that means you'll need to lose before you win. I admit there is a genuine problem that most muds don't make losing very interesting, so that when you do lose it feels more like punishment than what it is -- a step on your road to winning. There are some muds that have taken positive steps in easing the game for new players, for example those that allow you to reroll or redesign your character in play, such as God Wars II and Legends of Karinth (last time I checked). I think Blood Dusk lets you shuffle skill slots as well. There probably are other muds like this, hopefully a few more will come up in the thread. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 213
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
As was stated before, welcome to Top Mud Sites.
Learning the mechanics of any game can be a bit rough. Sometimes it is best to drop by a game's forums and discuss the intricacies with the current players. Often, you may get varied opinions on how to min/max a character (if that is what you are looking to do) from those that are mechanics-explorers. There are people that actually love to figure out the hows-and-whys of the code. I can fully understand the "wisdom is king" dilemma used by most DIKU MUDs. It never fully made sense to me that wisdom and intelligence should be so highly prized in training a melee class. In the code I have been working on the practices/trains gained depend on the prime used (often the main attack, except in the case of artisans) statistics for the class. Strangely, just tonight I had updated our code to change the maximum that a skill could be "practiced" with a teacher. It does use the base charisma, intelligence and wisdom of the teacher, and the intelligence of the student to define a max % for practice, within a minimum of 40% and a maximum of 90% range. In a case like this I posted the change in our "Changes" thread and started a thread under the "Idea" folder (on our forums) so that players could discuss the changes with staff and others. I also changed the in-game help file (which is also available on the website) on practice to reflect the change. I agree that proper documentation is key, but on some games it is a guide rather then a hard and fast character setup system. However. the onus is often on the new player to read the available documentation, and ask questions, before they have invested a large amount of time into a character. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Home MUD: GateWay
Home MUD: Rocky
Home MUD: MUME
Posts: 76
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Yes I know about the Diku style WIS/CON max when making a char. Lets you stockpile pracs and hps early on. Later you raise the rest of your stats to maximum as well. The solution is to just make a new char once you learned this trick. These are easy muds and it's no hardship to zoom to level 50. On the other side are LP muds where stats are generally not rolled and also not as important. You could try them instead although some are programmed with some fairly elaborate character generation routines too so you might have to try a few LP's.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 50
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Personally I'm of the opinion that linking stats to skill acquisition isn't the optimal way to go. It's slightly counter-intuitive and works out to be an arbitrary and cruel way to punish new players for not knowing things experienced players do.
Players tend to become attached to the characters they create, and can become very disheartened if told they have to re-create them in order to get all the skills they need. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
More choices mean more customisation, and many players love customisation. But the more decisions you can make, the more likely you are to make a bad one, and players will make mistakes. Furthermore, particularly for games that are still in heavy development, the relative strength of different abilities will be in a state of flux. It's bad enough forcing players to restart because they made a mistake, but forcing a top player to restart because his carefully optimised character has just been nerfed is really unfair. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Home MUD: GateWay
Home MUD: Rocky
Home MUD: MUME
Posts: 76
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Of course those "optimizing" players did come in for some derision and heckling by those who thought them unable to play whatever was available. :-) Myself I started out loving the tweaking and tuning of stats but I think over the years I've garnered some wisdom and started to see the POV of those who thought it a tad silly and perhaps OCD. <grin> |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 50
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
I would also add that I should not have to read your forums before I play your game (not talking to anyone specific here) and my character shouldn't be permanently penalized for my not having done so. That doesn't mean that you can't have customization choices that are stupid. A caster with maxed out strength and no intelligence shouldn't be effective. However, if for whatever reason a new player did choose to max out their wizards weight lifting stats, they should be able to fix that error at a later date, once the error of their ways becomes apparent, and to do so without having to remake their character from scratch. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
It's not an "either or" scenario though. There's no reason why you can't provide off-the-shelf starting packages as well as the option for fully customised ones. I even provide an entire class for newbies and players who don't like tweaking and optimising - but in my experience, most competitive players enjoy the opportunity to customise, and it gives the game considerably more replay value. Agreed, I'm not a fan of permanent penalties. I've tried some games where you really do have to search through their forums before you play, pick one of the recommended builds, and start working on it right from the start - otherwise you end up with a sub-par character. That might be okay for a roleplaying game, but I find it unacceptable for competitive PvP. Last edited by KaVir : 05-18-2010 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Added a second reply |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
New Member
Join Date: May 2009
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 20
![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Ive never really understood this but then again the mud i play dosent set much in stats in the first place... they play a role bit not massivle...
basic idea is that if you want to play a fighter type go for str dex and con over the others if you want to play a casting type go for int wis and cha (charisma/luck) crafting types can be almost anything but int wis and con are a good selection.... the mins and maxes are also race limited, it would be rare to see a trolack with INT above 10! but with str below 15 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Home MUD: GateWay
Home MUD: Rocky
Home MUD: MUME
Posts: 76
![]() |
![]() Try GateWay all your stats start at 1! <grin> Stats do have an effect there of course but they develop with your character (there is no training of stats) and depend on how you play, what experiences you have, what class/guild you choose to join and of course what race you picked. Elves start out with all stats at 1 like all other races for example but their maximum stats at level 100 are STR, CON, CHA: 90 and INT, WIS, DEX: 110. They tend to gain more stats in those attributes with higher maximums of course. But if one joins a warrior Guild like the Lost Knights for example they would gain more STR and CON. So even though some races might look to be better suited for certain Guilds that can be compensated for by joining the Guild you like early so that the stats you need get increased preferentially. Of course forget about joining the Vikings if yer a "pansy" Elf. <mutters to himself about brainless Vikes>
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
|
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
I think you should go into each and every new mud you try and say to yourself "My first character is going to suck." Because it is...each and every time.
You shouldn't know all the in's and out's at your first char gen for your new mud. I doubt many of the experienced players there did either. These are things you'll learn over time. Play...if you enjoy the game, the players, the atmosphere...recreate and make a better character. On the flipside of that: If it is a dealbreaker for you to not know whether or not you should max WIS at your first ever char gen at this brand new mud, then you're in for some less than stellar MUDding. Something like that should not ruin your experience at a new MUD. If it does, then you'll have to search out a mud where they explain a lot of that stuff in the beginning. In my experience, those MUDs are not the best to play. The best ones are the ones where you actually have to take time to learn and grow. They are the most rewarding experiences in MUDing. Good luck to you! I hope you find what you're looking for! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | ||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Member
|
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Why not? There's no way you're going to learn everything that'll make for a great character at your first ever char gen. If a player joins a mud and enjoys it, 9 time out of 10 they'll make a new character anyway. No matter how many helpful tips any MUD offers at gen, your first character will NEVER be as good as your second. As a MUD owner, it's a sign of player dedication (and in some ways, a good game), if a MUD is not a pick-up-and-go game and requires effort to learn. If it was easy and they gave you all the answers in the beginning, I think you'd see more of a revolving door of players. If it required thought and dedication, you'll see players stay and play a long time, creating new characters, new roleplay, etc. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | ||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Quote:
If this is your first visit, we strongly recommended that you choose one of the above two options, as they have been carefully optimised. You can redesign all aspects of your character (except name) whenever you like, so don't worry about any long term impact - your initial setup is just to help you get started. The more effort it requires to learn, the greater the number of mistakes the players will make. As I said in my earlier post, "...the more decisions you can make, the more likely you are to make a bad one, and players will make mistakes. Furthermore, particularly for games that are still in heavy development, the relative strength of different abilities will be in a state of flux. It's bad enough forcing players to restart because they made a mistake, but forcing a top player to restart because his carefully optimised character has just been nerfed is really unfair." |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |||
Member
|
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
And if the MUD you're playing is a helpful MUD, which it would be if you created a character and somebody tells you "Hey, you should max out WIS at creation"...then how difficult is it, if you're level 1 or 2 or just new if it's a leveless mud...to delete and do it again in 30 seconds? Now if you're level 40 in a 100 level MUD, you may or may not quit and do over. But I'm willing to bet that if you're dedicated enough to progress to level 40, that you actually enjoy the game. Which, to me means, you're making another character anyway. If you rolled a 15 WIS instead of an 18? You may gain 4 pracs instead of 5...and when gained and converted, does not add up to a lot extra HP in most MUDs. That's just as an example, anyway. If you are more unhappy with your 15 WIS then you are happy playing the game, you probably shouldn't be playing there...the whole environment, all the building, RP, storylines in place, etc...don't mean anything if you not maxing out one stat at char gen can ruin the whole thing for you. That's just neurotic! As for your MUD and changing anything but your name whenever you want, that's unique. The larger majority of MUDs don't offer such a generous bonus. If I was a PK'er (don't know how your system works), hell, I'd change my stats according to what class I wanted to PK. If I see I'm going up against a mage, and the INT stat gives me good saves, I'd change it on a whim to raise my INT and go kick the crap out of the mage. Quote:
Quote:
One, nobody is forcing anyone to restart. Again, that is all personal preference. Either you can live with it or without it. And it honestly can't be a mistake if you don't know anything about the game. That's the whole point of creating a character and playing for the first time...to see if you like the game. I know you disagreed with me, but I'll say it again...your first character will never, ever, ever in the history of MUDding be as good as your second character...no matter how many tips you give at creation. UNLESS...you offer a step-by-step guide of what stats to take for what class, where to level, where not to level, what areas are traps and will cause you lose EXP, what MOBs are vulnerable to what weapons, how to get these weapons, etc...a walkthrough, if you will. At which point, it's not a game anymore. And then, and only then, can it be called a mistake...because you ignored the "walkthrough' given at char gen. Two, I wasn't speaking about seasoned players. Changes that nerf seasoned players suck and I agree with you on that point. A MUD administrator shouldn't base his leveling system on such things as, say the higher the DEX you have, the less you'll be hit...and then changes it so DEX doesn't really affect anything anymore. Then we have the thief who max'ed out DEX 2 years ago saying WTF? At which point, that wasn't a mistake either, because the thief knew to MAX out DEX and the Admin just royally screwed him. Last edited by Vesper : 06-10-2010 at 10:56 AM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |||||||||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Some time ago I ran a "nerf week" where I nerfed several of the most popular options over the space of a few days. The response from the players was overwhelmingly positive, and they immediately redesigned their characters to see what new setups had become viable. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | ||||||||
Member
|
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
If "mistakes" can be made, again I ask why even have the option to make them? If I make a warrior, don't give me the option to train/roll stats at char gen. Max out my CON and my STR and just put me in the newbie school automatically. No "mistakes" can be made. So what if I want to max out my INT at creation, thus costing me fewer practices and learning my skills faster so I can convert extra prac's to trains to HP. Don't give me that option...it might be a "mistake" for a newbie. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Didn't I agree with you on this...? And I thought the topic was new players at character creation on a new mud...? |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | ||||||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
![]() ![]() |
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You want some abilities that people can switch around and trade? Let's call them "equipment"! You want some other abilities that are locked to the player and can't be changed? Let's call them "skills"! And players, please pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Quote:
Nope, it's nearly impossible to have two identical characters post-classing, and even similar characters are pretty unusual. Designing a character is a bit like trying to build a MtG deck. |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |||||||
Member
|
Re: Avoiding mistakes in char gen/early game
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Skills are what is assigned to your class...if you are playing a class-based MUD, yeah, they're gonna be locked, with maybe a multiclassing system thrown in. *shrug* Don't see a problem here. Obviously, this is a none issue in classless MUDs. Quote:
I don't know enough about your MUD to comment. Again, I only know what's important when it comes to PK and fighting MOB's...and that's attributes. And the extra push that EQ gives to those attributes! Which you can change however you'd like over at your MUD as the situation demands...so...what else could even be important to make it like a MtG deck? |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
|
|