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Old 07-27-2005, 11:57 AM   #21
Realedazed
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I may need to re-read the thread but I think both of you are saying similar things. Teach your daughter she can do anything thing she wants and support her in her decision. The difference, to me, it seems is that one side is saying: your daughter can do anything. On the other: you daughter can do anything, as long as its not a "traditional woman's" job.

As a woman, I feel I can do whatever I want, but society will always have something to do say about it. For example, my male cousin joked about becoming a stripper. Everyone laughed and even thought he'd be good at it. I joked about the same thing, and everyone thought it'll be nasty. As long as it is treated in a professional matter (read: no sexual favors), isn't it the same exact job?

Well, to get a little bit back on topic. Like I said, in this world anyone can do what they want even if it is a traditional woman's role. Even those traditional roles are changing or evolving. What about the woman who wants to stay home with the kids. Some are doing it for various reasons. Some are homeschooling, some have a home business, while others have other reasons. I have nothing against that woman. Heck, there are guys staying home with the kids, too. So, is something wrong with that? I have nothing against models. Some of these models may also run their own modeling agency or other company. I have nothing against the women in adult films. Many of those woman are actually running the show (I watched something about that a while ago on HBO). Other woman have started huge businesses in what we could call woman's work: cooking, cleaning, beauty, etc.

I don't know, I wanted to be a veterinarian ever since I was a little girl. I also wanted to be a model. My grandmother supported me in both dreams. If I should have a daughter, I'll teach her to be a strong woman. I'll support her in whatever decision she should make in life. In the end, its her decision.
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:00 PM   #22
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I am not saying anything but a traditional woman's role. Prostituting yourself is not the definition of a traditional woman's role.
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:56 PM   #23
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Opps, Fifi, I'm sorry. I really wasn't focusing on prostitution. I was focusing on other things. For example, you have said that you didn't care for models. I just wanted to say that a woman could do more in that industry than just being a pretty face.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:53 AM   #24
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:41 AM   #25
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First, I want to say, I think it's wonderful that we can have a heated and passionate debate without bearing any personal rancor.

I've recently left the game I played for four years, but the it was evident on the game I played before, and I see it on the game on which I've recently begun. And women are not playing the mother role with depth and passion. While many women do play the ritual of seduction, procreation and reproduction, once they produce these imaginary offspring they do not blow any depth into their rp of mothering. They drag their offspring into smoky noisy taverns. Their children magically disappear when they want to run out and spar, or troll the bars for their next sperm donor. I'd love to see a woman on a mud scold her naughty rug rats as they interfere with her conducting her livlihood. I'd love to see them sacrifice for their children. I don't believe that lovely peasant girl A B and C can all afford private nurses. Why aren't any of these women running day care centers? Why aren't any of them stressed out about the magnitude of balancing their jobs as leathal warriors and the care of their children? The children born in muds seem to be more like a form of jewelry than small people that bring joy beyond their flawless cuteness, and bring worries and fatigue. The people playing mother roles are often not playing them realistically. But really this thread is about a different type of one dimensional rp.

More on point, I have trouble telling one honey voiced femme fatale from the next. This is a great pc concept: Ariana is a beautiful young woman from the poor side of town, who works hard to polish herself and use her sweet face to attract powerful men, and ensnare them in her invisible silken webs of intrigue so she can run the world through them.

The problem is with Ariana is that ninety percent of female pc's are Ariana. And less than one percent are: Mary, a woman from the poor part of town, who worked as a weaver until her fingers bled to pay to learn to read. She managed to get a job as an aide, where her sound judgement and hard work earned her a job as top administrator. She saved every penny she ever made and raised an army one warrior at a time, solidifying each man and woman to her through the sheer force of her personality and is now taking over the world.

I think that prostitution is a traditional woman's role that originates from societies where women are less valued than men.  I don't have any data to draw on, but perhaps I should do some research. Your question makes me wonder this: How common is prostitution in matriarchal societies vs. patriarchal?

Also, most of the prostitution in mud, is not money for sex. But the selling of one's very being including sex for second hand power.

I would also be happy to see more of the women who play these roles play them proudly. See them stand up and say, I slept my way to the top. Where there are men  willing to be manipulated by their penis, I am smart enough to profit. Instead most women who get ahead through sex deny they've done so, further emphasizing that what they do is shameful. If this is a role women insist on embracing (in spite of my very vocal protests) then let's embrace it without shame.

As for what roles I'd like to see women in, I'd like to see women in as many roles as they can imagine. And I'd like to see them imagine more than two. The man-like woman warrior and the woman who is a source of sexual desire first and hunter-gatherer-philosopher-weaver-warrior-mother second are both cliches. I want to see women not playing cliches. I want to see women who believe they don't need to flutter their lashes and stick out their perfect breasts for what they say to be interesting. Nor do I think they should have to remake themselves into men to be taken seriously.
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:17 PM   #26
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Maybe I've missed it commented on earlier in the topic, however it seems to me the issues are stereotypical female characters, i.e., femme fatale, fainting flower, blushing beauty, man hating swordswoman, etc....

In the few roleplaying games I've taken an active part in, I found it disconcerting to find myself competing for rp time with other players (particularly males) when ravishing sexpots were roaming the land. On one game, it was like 75 percent of the women were possessed by drama-loving succubi while the other 25 percent were angry and resentful.
To make matters worse, very few of the males were put off by the behavior. All guys find the drama entertaining in rl? I doubt it.

I think at issue is this, in a "real world" scenerio, 75 percent of the women are not beautiful manipulative women, or helpless, or
drama queens.

The biggest problem with playing a "stereotype" in an rp mud is the lack of desire to give those characters flaws, issues, and real deep personalities. The very definition of a stereotype defies depth.

This isn't just a problem that female players face, but male players as well. I've seen white knights AND evil sorcerers who all imagined themselves to be darkly handsome and completely irresistable to women. Too many "perfect" characters and rp loses interest, depth, and story.

This isn't an argument saying there shouldn't be sexy women on rp games, women who stay home and raise children, or women who don't want to do anything but tend the gardens. At the same time this isn't an argument saying that all women in the game should be ravishing drama queens.
What it is saying is... flaws, not perfection, make the characters. RP is boring as #### when 75 percent of the game is playing the same type of character just with a different name. This is the number one reason I don't RP anymore on MuDs. Whereas at least on mushes, where characters are approved, you have a greater chance of meeting characters with depth, flaw, history, and personality.




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Old 07-28-2005, 02:29 PM   #27
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I think you sum up nicely what I was trying to get at, Jeena.
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Old 07-28-2005, 04:29 PM   #28
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