[Aeyr]

You've got a pretty odd definition of free then.

Your beer is free since you didn't have to pay for it. The AOL cds everyone used to get in the mail were free since you didn't have to pay for them. Your 'free' mud is free because the admin (or whoever) is paying for server costs.

You seem to want to say something is free only if nowhere in the line of its production was money spent to get it. Well, chap, that applies to anything, and if you're going to use that definition for free, nothing in the world is free short of air and water (and water only in some places of the world). Someone is always footing the bill somewhere along the line, be that for games or growing of hopps for beer.

[KaVir]

The beer didn't cost me anything personally, but that doesn't make it free. If the pub advertised "our beer is free", I wouldn't be particularly impressed if I ordered one only to be told "It's only free if another customer pays for it". Would you? Are you honestly telling me that you'd consider that honest advertising?

It's exactly the same with the credits. You're saying that they're 'free' because you can get them off another player instead of buying them yourself - but the point you're missing is that another player had to pay for them! The credits are not free - they are bought, by other customers.

Or to put it more bluntly:

You walk into the pub and order a beer? That'll cost £x. You don't have to be the one to pay for it, but someone must.

You play Acheae and want X credits? That'll cost $y. You don't have to be the one to pay for them, but someone must.

[Ilkidarios]

Crap, the internet goes out for a few days and know I have about FIVE PAGES worth of posts to read.  I guess I'll just not read them and pretend that I did... I mean...  This is a very good discussion. You never read this.

[Aeyr]

Actually, that does make your beer free. If you're not willing to concede that, there's not much point debating further.

And your analogy doesn't really apply. If anything, you'd have to compare the game and the pub, not the game and the beer.

[Ilkidarios]

Yeah, as an American I would like to think water is free, until I notice that other people have to pay water bills (my water is from the aquifer).  And also that other people are willing to fork over cash for bottled water.

[Valg]

Which is what KaVir did. The pub, like IRE, is the commercial enterprise taking the money in both cases. The beer, like the credits, is the quantity of value being exchanged for (someone's) money. You're misreading a very apt analogy.

[KaVir]

No, it doesn't - someone had to buy the beer from the pub, therefore the beer wasn't free, and it would be misleading for the pub to advertise "our beer is free" on the basis that you can ask a friend to buy it for you. Can't you see the flaw with your argument? If that logic applied then every shop in the world could advertise all their products as 'free'.

That's exactly what I did:

You walk into the pub and order a beer? That'll cost £x. You don't have to be the one to pay for it, but someone must.

You play Acheae and want X credits? That'll cost $y. You don't have to be the one to pay for them, but someone must.

[Auseklis]

I've played IRE games for the past seven years and never bought credits from IRE or other players (and, despite that, became an immortal). They're only really necessary if you want to access the PVP sub-game, which never interested me. I know from experience that there are lots of other similar players, for whom IRE is completely free.

[KaVir]

So with seven years experience of IRE games, you've found that it's necessary to buy credits if you want to compete in player-vs-player activities? Sounds like your experience agrees with the chess analogy as well, then.

But what about the other aspects of gameplay that I mentioned in my earlier posts? For example, were you able to get a tailoring (or jewellery, etc) permit without credits? Did you manage to build a house (with rooms and doors) without credits? What magical artifacts were you able to get hold of without credits? And did you manage to get and customise a pet without credits?

[Aeyr]

Sorry guys, I'm not misreading the analogy. Look at it again.

Your complaint is that IRE games shouldn't be able to say they're free to play. And in your analogy you SHOULD be saying the pub is free to enter and enjoy (assuming it has no cover/door charge to get in). The pub isn't saying the beer is free. Nor is IRE advertising the credits are free (though they actually can be obtained without spending money, as I previously mentioned).

You're comparing the entering and playing of Achaea with the buying of beer in a pub, it's just not the same.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you that free = "don't have to pay for it" because that seems pretty self-evident to me, and since you're not willing to concede that, there's no point in discussing it further really.

I think you guys are arguing the wrong point anyway. I think the point you should be trying to argue is that muds-where-you-CAN'T-pay-for-advancement-with-real-world-money (or can with only a fixed 'boolean' amount of advancement) should have a special category in the listing here on TMS so that people know that. I think that's great, you/they should have that. It doesn't invalidate IRE games' claim to the word "free" though. IRE games apply in pretty much any interpretation of the word. The onus is on you/them to think of some word/term that encapsulates what you're trying to convey (a word that isn't "free", since you don't want to be grouped with other free-to-play muds).

[Aeyr]

You're asking all the wrong questions here, KaVir. You should be asking "without spending money". And the answer is yes, that's possible on all counts.

[Gorgulu]

1. Credits have no effect on how quickly you advance, in terms of ranking, in an IRE game. If your student rocketed past you in rank, maybe it's because he was smarter than you, which I find quite likely.

My old Lusternia character was a fairly important person for quite awhile, and I never purchased ONE credit. I made it to level 55, led a clan, participated in a handful of large events, and got to play around in a bit of political intrigue (Not that well, mind you, my character was a raving lunatic), among other things. I made a lot of friends, had a lot of fun, and became quite well known. I never sent IRE a single penny.

There you go.

[Gorgulu]

Tailoring permits, ect. only exist in Achaea, I think. I know in Lusternia there's nothing like that to restrict crafting. As for magical artifacts, those tie in with PvP, as all they do is help you in combat. There are a handful of fun little ones that do other things, but they're very cheap and can be attained without spending money.

Pets would require a lot of work to get just by spending gold, but it IS possible, and I'm sure a number of people have done it.

As for a house, in Lusternia you can purchase a house, rooms, doors, ect. with nothing but gold. The only house pieces that credits are used for are special bonus things, such as an item that increases willpower regeneration in that room.

[KaVir]

Okay - in even more simple terms:

You can enter the pub for free.

You can enter Achaea for free.

You can drink water in the pub for free.

You can play the basic game in Achaea for free.

If you want to get drunk in the pub, you need alcohol.

If you want the full range of features in Achaea, you need credits.

If you want a beer, the barman has to be paid for it.

If you credits, Achaea has to be paid for them.

Some people have been known to get drunk without spending any money.

Some people have been known to be successful in Achaea without spending any money.

It's possible to win beer in the occasional pub quiz.

It's possible to win credits in the occasional Achaea quiz.

I asked that already, and you dodged the question:

Note that I'm specifically interested in how these things could be achieved without credits - or if that's not possible, I'd like you to explain what systematic way can be used to earn credits without paying for them. "Buying them from other people" doesn't count - that would be like claiming WoW is free on the basis that you can wash your parents car in return for them paying for it, thus costing you nothing.

[Aeyr]

[Ilkidarios]

I don't like the credits in Achaea mostly because I don't like the idea of exchanging real money for money in a MUD. I might be more willing to buy credits if they were in a graphical game, such as DAoC, because I would be able to see what I had and show it to other people with a graphical representation. I've never bought stuff in a video game with real money, but I would be more inclined to buy something that was represented graphically that others could see. I mean, you could read the line of text that says that I have something cool, but it's still a line of text. I guess I like to visually show that I have something cool to other people.

[Gorgulu]

You can basically split the ways to get credits into two options.

1. Time
2. Money

You can invest time into the game, or you can invest money. It took time to earn that money, so there's really no differance.

To get credits without directly sending IRE money, you can:

1. Win an award in an art or writing contest (Not too difficult. Even I've done it)

2. Purchase them from other players by spending in-game gold, via the credit market.

3. Become a Newbie Helper (I'm pretty sure they get a couple credits every hour or so when in newbie-helping mode)

4. Win an in-game lottery.

5. Have them given to you by another player.

Those are all of them off the top of my head. And whatever else you might say, the fact still stands that you can have a lot of fun and get very far in an IRE game without spending a dime.

[KaVir]

If your idea of 'enjoying the pub' is to sit around sipping water, then sure, you can do that for free.

But it would be misleading for the pub to attract customers with adverts like "enjoy as many free drinks as you want, all day every day", purely on the basis that you could drink tap water.

This is particularly misleading for muds where many of the features can only be purchased with cash, because the majority of muds are completely free to the players; that is to say, every aspect of gameplay is unlocked without money.

It's for this reason that I find the chess analogy more fitting - most people entering a "free chess tournament" wouldn't expect to have to pay extra if they wanted to be allowed to use their bishops. As Auseklis (who claims to be an immortal on an IRE game) readily admits, credits are necessary in order to compete in the PvP aspects of the game - much like bishops would be needed in order to compete in a competitive game of chess.

Only by implication. But either way, it's clear that there are many things which cannot be earned without credits. And it's clear that the only way to systematically earn credits is with real-life money.

[KaVir]

I specifically asked for systematic ways to earn credits - winning the occasional contest doesn't allow you to systematically progress within a mud.

But those players have bought the credits.  I recently bought my friend lunch because he helped me move some stuff to my new apartment, but that didn't mean the lunch was free - the restaurant still had to be paid for it!

So any player can become a newbie helper to progress - and with only 250 hours of helping people they'd have earned enough credits to buy a basic pet?

See 1 (although this seems to be more "advancement through blind luck").

See 2.

Sure, and I could have a lot of fun and (probably) get quite far in a chess match without using bishops.

But the point is the game is only "free" to play at the basic level.  If you want access to the full game (and be able to compete on a level playing field), then that is no longer free.

[Gorgulu]

If your only goal in the game is to kill other players, then yes, someone somewhere will have to send IRE some money for you to have every possible advantage in doing so. But the PvP element is the only one stongly affected by credit purchases. PvE combat can be made easier as well, but to a far lesser degree, due to the differances between player and mob combat. You don't have to buy credits to rule a city or guild, for example. Nor will buying them help you in attaining that rank.