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Old 05-30-2002, 06:20 PM   #21
Dulan
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Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to an extent, yes.

However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old in Iaijutsu.

-D
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Old 05-30-2002, 07:46 PM   #22
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> Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to
> an extent, yes.

We're speaking of Shaolin kung-fu, which was the original form of kung-fu. Like most martial arts, it incorporates elements of both hard and soft:



> However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old
> in Iaijutsu.

I fail to see your point. You implied that Jet Li was inconsequential because he started training at 9, and that supposedly "serious" martial arts don't train those younger than 14. You've also mentioned that you don't consider the "Americanised" versions to be "serious" martial arts.

Yet Shaolin kung-fu - the original kung-fu - trains those as young as 6 (and it's certainly not "Americanised"). Are you now claiming that in order to be considered a "serious" martial art, it must consist entirely of killing your opponent while drawing your sword? (for those who don't know, Iaijutsu is a form of martial arts centered on the use of the Daito, and consists of a simultaneous drawing/cutting motion, followed by ritually cleaning the blood from the blade, and then returning the sword to its scabbard).
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Old 05-31-2002, 01:53 AM   #23
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Interesting, KaVir. I'll take a look at it later.

From what I've seen, understood, and experienced, any art that accepts people earlier then the early to mid teens tends to be a wee bit "soft", to be blunt.

Iaijutsu (Not Iaido. Significant difference.) tends to be a good example of this - Look at the philosophy. I _know_ I would _not_ want any of my small cousins, nephews, or relations that are not at least in their mid teens following Iaijutsu. While there are exceptions to the rule, not many young people that I know are mature enough _and have the strength of will_ to understand the core of what is being taught.

Let me rephrase - how many 6 year olds do you see being taught to kill? While some young folk may be mature enough to understand what is being taught, many do not yet understand _why_ it is being taught. And this is a hard topic to express - it is something understood at an almost unconscious level even by my own Sensei. He explained it fairly well, but I managed to only remember the geist of what he said. Yes, there is a definite sort of ageism - and I am the first to admit, there are definitely 14 year olds that should not be learning martial arts. (In fact, we have a teenager on these boards that should be held back at least 20 miles from the nearest Sensei, imo.) However, age is as close as anyone can come to a generic "maturity indicator". And even then - it sucks as an indicator.

As a personal sidenote to KaVir: I am personally surprised you have heard of Iaijutsu. Any prior martial arts training? Or just a casual interest? When I say 'Iaijutsu' ('net or RL), most people look at me odd, and proclaim me an idiot who has never trained in his life.

-D
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Old 05-31-2002, 04:32 AM   #24
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But to be equally blunt, so what?  You seem to imply that "hard" martial arts are somehow better than "soft" ones, when in my experience that's simply not the case (yes, I've fought in mixed-style tournaments, up to medium-contact - although I've witnessed numerous full-contact fights as well).  I tend to favour soft blocks coupled with hard attacks (eg a single-whip followed by an elbow to the face - or a palm-strike to the solar-plexus if I don't want to cause serious injury), but the two styles are generally inseparable - you need both in any martial art.

And yes, children should try to avoid many of the "hard" techniques while their bodies are still growing, or they can damage themselves; it's not about damaging others.  The soft techniques can be just as dangerous in that respect.

I trained in kung-fu (a mixture of styles) for 3 years and a sort of kickboxing/kung-fu hybrid style for 7 years (with a 1-year crossover - so a total of 9 years).  I started at the age of 12, and stopped at the age of 21 (when I left University).  I keep meaning to start again, but never get around to it.  The styles I learned consisted of a mixture of hard and soft techniques, including a number of moves which can kill or break bones (one that I always remember is a hard-block against a kick, with a follow-up that breaks both of your opponents legs!).  We also learned a few weapons, although the closest I came to a sword was the Boken.  I used to be quite good with Tonfa, though.

However to be fair my knowledge of Iaijutsu comes from a roleplaying game.  Learning how to kill someone as quickly as possible with a sword isn't a very useful skill in the real world, but it comes in very handy in a fantasy RPG - or a mud (I'm sure you're familiar with the "fastdraw" skill in GodWars).
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Old 05-31-2002, 02:05 PM   #25
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Old 05-31-2002, 02:12 PM   #26
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Old 05-31-2002, 03:57 PM   #27
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"...the concepts of hard/soft internal/external are finding fewer proponents among senior martial artists. Both conceptual twins are impossible to separate in reality, and masters will generally acknowledge that any distinction is largely only a matter of subjective interpretation. Arguments about the reality of the concepts are often waged by novices and philosophical dilettantes, ignorant of the inseparable nature of duality."
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:37 PM   #28
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For Kung Fu, possibly KaVir.

However, remember that I am using "soft/hard" in the context of -do and -jutsu here. Again, my experience has been limited to Japanese styles that used the Japanese terms exclusively - -Jutsu implies a war form, a form whose intent is to kill or disable ones opponent through any means necessary. -Do implies a sport, a spiritual thing. Aiki-DO is beautiful. But it has weaknesses, and it lacks several Aiki-juJUTSU holds that can be devastating.

I think I was wrong in my intepretation of soft/hard as per -do/-jutsu. Probably was, in fact. However, my sensei - a kudan, mind you - does acknowledge the difference between the style he uses, Iaijutsu, from Iaido. I'll go out on a limb, and assume a kudan can possibly know what he is talking about. However, in my experience, the usage of 'soft/hard' has had only limited use. Apparently, I misunderstood their usage - but that does not weaken my point any. Unless, KaVir, you are claiming that it would be a _good thing_ to teach a kindergartener or 1st grader (For the US types)/6 year old the pin I described in my previous post? If so, then I must take up a vast issue with you there.

-D
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Old 06-01-2002, 07:47 AM   #29
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Nope, my only argument is that a martial art isn't any less "serious" just because it is taught to children, and that some combination of both "hard" and "soft" are necessary for an effective fighting style.
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Old 06-02-2002, 11:26 AM   #30
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Old 06-02-2002, 12:39 PM   #31
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Old 06-02-2002, 02:37 PM   #32
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The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese. Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.
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Old 06-02-2002, 02:58 PM   #33
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Again, I have no experience with non-Japanese styles, which Kung Fu is definitely not Japanese in origin - it is Chinese, as we seem to keep repeating.

A very good convention, mind you. -points to previous examples of his mistaken hard art assumption-.

-D
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Old 06-03-2002, 02:42 PM   #34
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Old 06-04-2002, 06:30 PM   #35
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You lie.

The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty.

I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.

-D
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Old 06-04-2002, 08:32 PM   #36
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While my own experience is primarily with Korean "kicking" (the details not being important because I've no need to claim that the water is either cold or deep.)

The best martial advice I've ever heard came from my DI, Sgt. Tibedoux. Tib was a lee-zee-anna boy to the core, and he taught us that the best move we could do was to quickly place our dogtags into our mouths and bite down. Thus saving the medic some work.

As Tib would say, "You go han' han' cowmbat, you dea! Member' you go han' han', you gunna die. Bess' weapun fo' han' han' cowmbat is a loaded fowty-fi, Member' tow brin' yo' loaded fowty fi to any han' han' combat."

~Mandrake
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Old 06-04-2002, 09:08 PM   #37
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As long as we are comparing styles, I thought I would throw my own 2 cents in.  I have been training in various martial arts for over 14 years and have my own opinions.

Mostly, I've only seen a discussion of the "Eastern" arts, but there are many others that are quite formidable and therefore definitely worth mention.  My own opinion of the eastern arts is that they are too rooted in tradition and are not very practical for today's fighter.  If you disagree with me then you can take it up with Bruce Lee, who developed Jeet Kune Do, because HE felt most martials arts were impractical.  JKD is widely accepted as a major breakthrough in bringing MA into the 20th century.

Speaking of major breakthroughs, everyone discovered in the first five UFCs how great Brazilian Ju Jitsu was for a one-on-one fight.  Granted, BJJ has its limitations, especially when fighting multiple opponents.  However, BJJ is an invaluable tool when the fight heads onto the ground (as many of them do).

Finally, though it has been around for over 50 years, Krav Maga is recently starting to get some serious attention.  This is because it is one of the most effective, realistic fighting techniques ever developed.  Created for the Israeli Defense Forces, Krav Maga is now taught to law enforcement agencies around the globe (including counter-terrorism and S.W.A.T. teams).  The "traditional" arts have a lot to offer in the way of discipline, flexibility, and both mental and physical fitness.  However, if you are looking to kick some ass and defend yourself against a mugger, Krav Maga is definitely for you.



Therefore, any discussion regarding what martial arts will make you the best fighter that does not mention JKD, BJJ, and KM is seriously lacking in the realism department.
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:39 AM   #38
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You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.

dont make any judgements too quickly.
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Old 06-06-2002, 01:55 PM   #39
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Wow. I never expected this level of stupidity from even you, Shao. The human hand cannot approach the level of "hardness" as to equal metal. It is a structural/material impossility using simple physics and material density. Human flesh is extremely weak structurally - its main intent is to "hold stuff in", so to speak. While it can be "hardened" via calluses and/or scar tissue, it cannot become even as strong as a hardwood when compared in a density and/or strength test. And definitely not a metal. Human bone, no matter how dense it is, cannot approach the structural density and tensile strength of tempered metal. One of the most known "feats" of martial artists is breaking wood with their bare hands. The reasoning is simple - wood has a grain. Watch the wood break - it breaks along the grain of the wood. If the wood had no grain, a la metal, the persons fist would likely be damaged. All it takes is mere focus to a single point of the power behind the punch, and the force will quite often break the wood along the grain. It takes conditioning to not damage the hand, however. But, the human hand cannot be conditioned to pierce metal.

Human flesh and bone has severe limitations on how strong it can be conditioned. Tempered metal should not have the weak spots that can be seen in wood grains. If you want to argue that they were breaking through improperly tempered metal, then sure, I can punch a hole through a tank. Shao, I can honestly say you have no martial arts experience from this conversation. Human flesh and bone cannot ever be conditioned to be harder then tempered metal. Even initiates to many arts realize that within a few months of training. I think KaVir, and others, will agree with me here when I say you are utterly full of it - both in your claims of martial arts experience, and your claims of the human hand.

-D
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Old 06-06-2002, 08:17 PM   #40
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Human hands pierce metal armor?
Tensile strength?  What does a material's tensile strength have to do with a shearing action?  Wouldn't that be its shear stress or bending stress?

If martial artists can "focus" a blow to hit the grain of wood, and stress (no matter what regime) is expressed as allowable force over area.....could not the area of the blow be small enough to exceed a material's yield strength?

What is tempered metal?  Is it heat tempered, work hardened, annealed, quenched, forged, or just refined?  Hardened metals tend to be much more brittle than their unhardened ductile versions.  They are also more scratch resistant, yet fail at lower stresses.  Wouldn't that make them more likely to fail from a blunt blow?

Who's master / trainer is a higher "daaaaaaaaaan"?  I'm sure that figures in to all this somehow too.
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