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Old 09-14-2003, 01:58 PM   #41
the_logos
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What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying, "Well, I'm the best basketball player in the world if you don't count all the pros, semi-pros, and college players."

Yes, I count the world wars. They were wars of naked aggression by Germany and they -utterly- dwarf anything America has ever started. Completely and without comparison. You're just as bad as a flag-waving patriot in that you have no interest in the truth, just your own propaganda.

Further, what's this nonsense about Germany being older? Germany was founded well after America was. At the beginning of the 19th century, what is now known as Germany was a huge piecemeal quilt of hundreds of little nation-states. It wasn't until 1871 that Germany became a nation-state, under the influence of Bismarck and the dominion of the Prussian King. Yes, there were people there before the Germany became a nation-state but then, there were people in the US long before it became a nation-state as well.

Sheesh, I thought you said you were a history major. This is all basic European history.

--matt
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Old 09-14-2003, 11:53 PM   #42
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Doesn't matter if Germany wasn't a nation, it's been around longer then America, historical writings date back millenias for it, so we can have a better understanding, America doesn't have that, it only has the Native Americans, and they don't know much about their past, and they most definitely do not date nearly as far back as Germany does. Technically, no, Germany wasn't recognized as a country, but it is still far older then America, in the sense that when Rome was running the world, Germany (germania) was populated and had a fairly stable peoples, who have a history, even if they were barbaric in nature.

Now you say that the world wars were worse then anything America started. America unfortunately doesn't work like Germany did, where Germany makes it obvious where they stand. America will just get involved and instead makes war under the guise of television, the media, and then tries to justify it with noble words. If you ask me, I would rather know what a war is being fought for, rather then just sit and be in the dark about anything that America does and acts on. You? I don't know what you'd rather have, maybe you enjoy your ignorant society where you go about your simple lives with no knowledge as to what is happening, except your TV which is definitely not going to give you the truth. I'm still not understanding what we are debating now, I thought it was whether America had bleed more people then Euro-countries. Guess it doesn't matter anymore and we are just trying to get the better of each other?

-Delerak
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Old 09-15-2003, 12:54 AM   #43
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I'm not sure you ever really understood what was being debated, which is quite sad considering you began it.  You continue to try and assert that America is more warlike than these other countries without providing any type of reasoning behind it other than your opinion.  Everytime you try and prove this your "facts" are either shot down or you try to change what the debate is.
If you want to claim that modern day America is more aggresive than other nations then by all means do that, you will at least have a leg to stand on there.  If you don't like modern day America's war tactics then thats great, I would agree with you.  But when try and claim that the US historically is more warlike you are completely off base.
If this is what you actually want to debate sit down, do abit of research, and then attempt to back this claim up with some sort of facts that actually relate to the topic.
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Old 09-15-2003, 02:45 AM   #44
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Stilton:
I suggest you look up the definition of war of aggression before spouting off. A state is considered to have commited a war of aggression if it a) initiates aggressions in a manner which is in contravention to the UN charter, and b) is the first state to do so in the conflict in question. None of your examples meets both criteria. I personally consider this past war against Iraq to be a war of aggression, but even that is probably technically incorrect, as a state of war had already existed between the US and Iraq since 1990.
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Old 09-15-2003, 03:07 AM   #45
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Wow, you just keep putting that big ole foot of yours in your mouth don't you Delerak.  There are more than a few people on this board who realize you need to change the debate just so you aren't wrong.

You don't want to debate each countries bloodshed when they were each respectively new countries because it doesn't make sense to you - more likely it's because you would see just how bloody MOST other countries were when they were young - either within their own borders or outside.  You don't want to debate the World Wars - why, who knows but most likely again because it blows your whole theory away that the US has historically spilled more blood.  You say Germany is older than the US because you don't have much history of North America before the European patriots came over and destroyed it - and yet you don't want to remember all the war the germanic tribes waged.

Well, for those of us out here that aren't buying into your "America has historically spilled more blood in the last 300 years" propaganda, can you decide just exactly what it is you ARE trying to debate!  It's getting very hard to follow your weak###, thin debate!

OHHHH!  And I just Loooove this:
Now I'm no history major ... that's your cup of tea, but isn't the current accepted theory for Native Americans that they migrated over the Bering Land Bridge some 25-30,000 years ago?  And, after migrating south began to establish tribes in what is now called The United States area around 20,000 years ago?  Now just how old are those supposedly stable germanic tribes?  So if you are going to consider those Germanic tribes, it would seem to me you would have to consider the Native American tribes as well.

Oh, and please don't be so stupid as to say that Native Americans don't know much about their past just because you don't know it.  I know plenty about my ancestors.  We just tend to be closed off and not too friendly with outside prying people.  But it is amazing what you can find in written records in some tribal councils and colleges.

One last thing, you keep insinuating that most Americans and only Americans believe their TV's too much!  Man, you are so out of touch.  Every country, from Japan with far more Ads per person than the US, to Iraq and Saddam's propaganda on TV, to Hitler and his burning Books and his Hitler Youth Clubs ... every country and every people has it's own propaganda!  It's money man!  It makes the world go round.  It's not just the US ... your stupid to think so!  I'll quote another good Tool song:

"All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fat### dirty
Dollar"

Here, there, anywhere.  It's all media hype, businesses vying for your dollar, people trying to sell something, governments trying to bolster their ratings.  It's not only in the US.
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Old 09-15-2003, 06:29 AM   #46
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The Germans had plenty of wars, they were constantly battling Rome. Or does that not get included anymore, whereas the fact that Germany has had a long history (with bloodshed throughout it) does count?

It seems your excluding every fact that doesn't support your case. Well yeah, when you ignore facts left, right and center it tends to become difficult to show you why your wrong.
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:53 AM   #47
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Old 09-15-2003, 01:03 PM   #48
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I'm not an expert on the chairmen of various UN Commissions, but I can tell you that Iraq did not lead the now defunct weapon inspections program. The guys name was Hans Blix. Now its led by a man from Greece named Demetrius Perricos. Where are you getting this disinformation? Michael Savage?

You would be surprised to look into the UN resolutions that the US has vetoed. Then you may have a different song to sing about terrorists in the UN. Backers of Terrorism? Have you forgotten that the Taliban was formed and trained in the 80's by the US military? Have you forgotten that we sold Iraq all of their weapons to fight Iran? If you want terrorist backers look no further than Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan.

Ok, what is your point?


Saddam did this while he was still our ally. We turned a blind eye to his killing the kurds and chose only to interfere when he decided to invade Kuwait. Also, calling the Kurds Saddams people is kind of like calling the Cherokees and Apaches Andrew Jacksons people, or the Jews Hitlers people. Its a stretch of the truth to manipulate your thoughts. A successful one, apparently.

Really, Csmith, try to get a grip on reality here.

- Ryan
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Old 09-15-2003, 01:51 PM   #49
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logos:
That's a bit of oversimplification for WWI.

JilesDM:
Oh, so we're introducing the UN definition? Resolution 3314? War and aggression had meanings long before the UN came along.

I don't necessarily agree with your definition completely (because of the various well-known problems of the UN), but it is telling that you referred me to a definition but then failed to show just how my examples failed to meet it.

Because I'm sure that you'll agree that the US actions in the cases I cited meet the UN criteria for being warfare*, please describe how those actions were justified under the UN charter.

Stilton

* part G covers Iran and some similar instances pretty well:
"(g) The sending by or on behalf of a State of armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries, which carry out acts of armed force against another State of such gravity as to amount to the acts listed above, or its substantial involvement therein."
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Old 09-15-2003, 03:23 PM   #50
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Hi...it's been a while since I was keeping track of this thread, so I'll catch up real quick...

Delerak, I like you, but shut up. You're a bit outmatched, and for the most part the_logos and your other antagonists are right.

Meanwhile, TCPA is (as is so frequent in American media) being swept under the carpet in favor of more sensationalist material. Go register and lobby. Then stock up on current computer equipment; we're all going to be reduced to beowulf clusters just to get away from all of this crap in another few years.

One little thing on the current topic, though---

I was bored for an entire weekend a few months ago, and did my initial "Rambo" marathon; hadn't seen them all until that point. Does anyone remember that Rambo 4 took place in Afghanistan, and was actually a glorification about the Afghanis, and how cool they were, and how they NEVER gave up when invaded?

Yeah, and we whooped em in 3 weeks. But we were good boys, and very fair, and did it well within the limits of the Geneva convention.

Uh. ####. We must be God....or our government is lying yet again.

-Visko
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Old 09-15-2003, 04:55 PM   #51
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We were debating your original statement which was that "too much blood has been spilt for silly reasons here" (referring to America) and that because of that you'd rather live in Europe.

You've proceeded to try to wriggle out of the statement by saying that you were only talking about Europe since 1776, and then that you wanted to count deaths caused by Americans everywhere, and then that you didn't want to count World War I and World War II or Stalin's purges (all events that saw more blood spilled in Europe than have ever been spilled in the US).

More blood has been spilled for reasons both silly and stupid on European soil than on American. Period. I'm unsure why such an objectively true fact is so difficult for you to accept. I can only assume you have an anti-American agenda just as stupid as pro-American agendas.

I'm done with this.

--matt
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:27 PM   #52
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RE: Stilton

Spanish American war - Hostilities initiated by cuban revolutionaries.

Actions in the Phillipines - Hostilities initiated by Filipino revolutionaries.

Korea - North Korean People's Army initiates hostilities with a surprise invasion of the Republic of Korea.

Vietnam - Ho Chi Minh declared independance of Vietnam, then a French territory, later leading to hostilities when negotiations break down.

Iran - (ca. 1941) Pre-Shah government strong axis ally, invaded accordingly. (ca. 1953) western countries back coup d'etat staged by General Fazlollah Zahedi(sp?).

Grenada - General Hudson Austin launches coup, killing prime minister Maurice Bishop, giving the US a valid legal pretext for military engagement.

Iraq - hostilities initiated by Iraq by surprise invasion of Kuwait.

Afghanistan - Open government support of terrorist organizations gives US valid legal pretext for military actions.

Irrelevant. See second requirement in the definition of war of aggression.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:00 PM   #53
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JilesDM:
So Cuban revolutionaries initiate hostilities and the US responds by declaring war on Spain, including a Pacific conflict? That's an awful stretch to justify.

Just to make sure I have this right:

The US occupies their territory, declaring it US owned.
Revolutionaries attack the US occupation forces.
The US is justified in repressing them because hostilities were initiatied by the Filipinos.

Is that your position?

I haven't argued this one

That's a gross oversimplification- are you aware of the previous (FDR era policy) before the post-war US leaders started to change it around? Nevertheless, I didn't give it as an example specifically because it's so complicated.

I'll have to read the UN document again to see its opinion on invading a country when its internal political process starts to fall apart.

I didn't say anything about Iraq, particularly part 1.

Never mind the fact that the US was the group that gave those gentlemen their education in the resistance/terror business, or the fact that a link to their government wasn't actually proven for the attacks the US used as an excuse to invade them.

Stilton
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Old 09-15-2003, 10:47 PM   #54
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The US's involvement was rather minor, mainly protecting US citizens located in Cuba at the time of the revolution.  The sinking of the USS Maine drew the US into full combat.  Wether or not Spain was responsible for the sinking is still controversial I suppose, but it is the event that triggered the war response from US citizens.
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:44 PM   #55
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Isn't "Western civilization" comprised of both the USA and Europe? If so, isn't it pointless trying to decide which one is bloodier or stupider when both have the same cultural roots? I mean, really, it's rather like arguing which colour is the superior blue, "cerulean" or "azure". Anyone read this thread and think of that old Trek episode, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"?
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:47 PM   #56
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:10 AM   #57
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Your probably right, I still would rather live in Europe. Why? Because America is getting too large and powerful, becoming more of an Empire then a country. When this happens you get over-confident, then you die. I don't want to die young like billy the kid. Anyone read Billy's Blues? Good short book by C RIPS MELTZER I just finished.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:37 AM   #58
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Re: Stilton

Straw man. I did not state that it was justified, only the reasons that it does not constitute a war of aggression. The US had strong political sympathies with Cuba, and armed conflict had been taking place between Cuban revolutionaries and Spain, therefore the conflict was already in progress. The explosion of the Maine, which was in port to ensure the protection of US citizens in Cuba, is what drew the US into the war. As Tavish noted, whether or not Spain actually was responsible for the incident is still a matter of scholarly debate. In either case, the US could not have waged a war of aggression, as aggressions had already been ongoing for some time when the US began its involvement.

Another straw man, and grossly inaccurate to boot. The Philippines, previously a Spanish territory, was ceded to the United States as a result of the treaty of Paris that ended the Spanish American War. Again, not a war of aggression.

[snip off-topic rambling].

In the future, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from attempting to put words into my mouth. I stated that, prior to Iraq, the US had never waged a war of aggression. Period. Objections that past US military actions were not justified are irrelevant with respect to debating the truth of that statement.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:04 AM   #59
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Okay right off the back to settle a point from way back... Libya does not chair the UN Commission on Human Rights.  In fact they aren't even ON the commission!  

Since you all followed the link to the UN website, you may as well discover for yourself a little bit about

As for Idi Amin... I thought I heard he died a year ago, but regardless, he misdoubt he was in Riaad as the Saudi government restricts him to Mecca

The US declared war on the British, not just to start off the War of Independance (which doesn't count because we weren't a 'nation' at that point) but also to kick off the War of 1812, sometimes called ' and occasionally 'Mr Madison's War'.  Largely however it was a war of imperialism, revealing US designs on both Florida (then held by Spain) and Canada.

Who else needs to be debunked?  Oh yes... lest we forget - Delerak.  No, I'm not going to lambast you with the fallacy of your argument, others have done that sufficiently already.  Instead I'm going to berate you for failing to rise to the challenge of your country.

Right now, before anyone convinces themselves that I am in favor of the war in Iraq, or imperialism in any guise (including that of technology manufacturer), let me state wholeheartedly and for the record that I am not.  If President Bush recieves any more than one single vote next year, I will consider it a personal failure.  It is my goal to expose the evil bastard so completely that even his wife is afraid to vote for him.

Now that said, it is also important to know that I very much love my country... it is the government that I fear.  As a citizen of the US, it is my duty to call attention to the flaws in the system.  To work to enact, elect and support the programs or people that work for me.  Also to reject the programs and people that work towards ideals I do not support.  

I believe that Bush, in furtherance of a long standing US policy, has sparked the war that my children will fight for us, and my grand children may well die from.  I have frequently considered emigrating to a nation where I might cower in safety for a generation or two.

I must however reject this notion in favor of standing up for what is right - what must happen if we are to salvage some kind of freedom for our grand children.  The way of results in nothing but global slavery, the roll back of all the advancements of civilization that democracy purports to have created.  Imperialism ultimately failed the Romans and the Egyptians, but not until thousands of years of slavery and excess finally collapsed against the force of outside pressures.

So, Delerak, for gods sake quit simpering in your beer about how scary the world is out there and DO something to affect it.  Refusing to stand against oppression is to support and perpetuate oppression.  

Silrathi

Just to add a bit more discusses our motives and goals in wars of the past.

Sil
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:03 AM   #60
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Ok, everyone settle down :P

Actually this thread started with a warning about tcpa, and even has a link to a website for the ones opposing it ().

Having spent some time looking at the webpage, it strikes me as odd that wasn't used instead. It's better at getting the point across.

Welcor
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