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#41 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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I've played Mind's Eye Theatre LARP games that worked much like that, where you could sometimes play an entire evening without needing a referee (unless you were heavily involved in a major plotline). The roleplaying was more like improvised acting, and focused much more on interaction between the players. But in my experience, tabletop RPGs are a different style of game entirely, with the GM telling the story as the players progress. The roleplaying I've encountered in such games is more like interactive storytelling, with the players each playing the role of one of the major characters in the story, and the GM creating the plots, setting the scenes and playing the NPCs. The problem with tabletop games is that you really need a GM to do anything, and that's difficult to organise online unless you're a group of friends who arrange to meet up at specific times (and even then, you can't just play whenever you like). Many muds try to reduce this problem by automating as many of the GM's tasks as possible - in some cases, the mud itself becomes the GM, creating adventures and controlling the NPCs. But it was my understanding that the MUSH-style muds usually take an approach more like the LARP games, focusing primarily on player interaction and therefore reducing the need for GMs, so that the players could play without a specific GM (or even without any GM at all). I realise not all MUSHes work like this, but I'm talking in very general terms. Have I misunderstood the way MUSHes are usually run? |
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#42 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Name: Matt
Posts: 141
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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My point to Delerak was that in a MUSH you don't necessarily have coded mechanics for every occasion so outcomes have to be determined by other means, whether through collaboration between players or via a GM or referee and this is almost impossible without some kind of OOC communication. It is roleplaying in the tabletop tradition; essentially social and collaborative where players work together for the enjoyment of all. |
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#43 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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If you had not ignoreed him, alsmost immediatly after he clairified quite clearly <quote>Everybody has their opinion on what roleplaying is. Fine. But it's fairly safe to say that there is no debate on what metagaming is inside a roleplaying game. </quote> Which is the point he was trying to make. Never at any point did he dismiss what you said as worthless. Effectivly what you are saying is that everything you say is valid, and anyone who disagrees is wrong and worthless.. so much so they are ignored. MY OPINION, and my decision on what a role playing game is, is that we are given a stage, props, and maybe a catalyst in the form of an event and then we roleplay how our characters deal with that situation. Whether this be table top gaming, MUD's or MUSH's or whatever. In table top gaming we are given a module and a path for a story, but a good DM (or is it GM now) lets the players find their own way.. so really the outcome is not decided you are just given guide on how it should. If you take this one step further and decide who will do what, in what order, or even play out a known situation in which you know the full outcome, you are acting in a piece of fiction and taking a 'role' in a play.. yes,, its role playing but similar to how acting can be called role playing... but not how I see a role playing game where I make it up as I go along with no conception of the ending or where the story can go. Summary of my opinion - Where everything but the players actions and responses are undetermined... this to me is a role playing game regardless of the engine behind it (mud, mush, muck, tabletop). A game where "players" (not NPC's) actions are predetermined.. this is playing a role... is it a game? I dunno? Both roleplaying... obsolutly. And this is the point I think Delerak was trying to make, (though he has no issue speaking for himself... and I still dont like him) ..albeit in a sarcastic manner. If you start a thread, please have the decency to listen to everyones opinion. This discussion only started to get unpleasant when you made it so Nymeria with your dismissals and ignoring. Up until then this was all good. |
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#44 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 71
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
I found it got unpleasant with Delerak's responses. Hence, I decided I did not want to deal with them any longer.
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#45 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 71
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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#46 | |||
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 60
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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#47 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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You are quite correct in your assumption, I have not played a MUSH, I prefer to keep my 'game' in RPG and want a system of improvment in place that is not purely 'real life' personal. But one thing I like to do is switch off the OOC and play out everything IC. When someone wants to discuss the scenario OOC, it annoys me. Unless of course it is after the event. The majority of the posters here indicate this does happen a lot in MUSH's. If by basic framework, you mean what I have already quoted.. place, event, props.. that fair enough.. however if the framework includes how a character will respond to a certain thing.. then no. I however was just responding to some of the situation quoted in this very thread.. where some one indicated they "act out scenarios"'. I have been in mud's where some people plan what will approximatly transpire between the characters on OOC channels, and then 'slip on their costume' and do it.. and I cannot see the fun in this at all. My bugbear here is I just do not see the point in ignoring someone, no matter how annoying. It was not Delerak who steered this thread away from its original topic, a simple re-read will see that this is where the conversation had steered towards. There are a million ways to constructivly deal with an issue in a debate.. slamming the door in someones face / gaggin them is not one of them, especially when some people respond properly to that partricualr person, and you only get half a conversation. Last edited by MudMann : 09-29-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Minor edits to the first paragraph as I made no sense |
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#48 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 60
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
If someone cannot constructively deal with an issue without sending personal insults at me and constantly bringing up off-topic stuff to bicker about, I -will- gag them. 'Debates' have rules, and one of them is no personal/childish ad hominem attacks. He is in no way 'debating'. Ignoring is my right as a forum user, and frankly I see no reason why I shouldn't use it as I see fit. As you can see, disagreements are not the issue -- I'm still responding to you.
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#49 | |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,393
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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#50 | |
Senior Member
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
Looking back over this thread, the main problem seems to be that Nymeria appears to be either ignorant of MUDs or deliberately relying on generalizations about H&S MUD in formulating the differences between RP on MUDs and MUSHes. I've seen good and bad examples on both (though personally I've never witnessed good examples on MUSHes, I have been shown logs which were good). Delerak's comments, as MudMann said, were a bit blunt but the beginning of any petty and rude behavior was in Nymeria's post.
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Just something to think about, Jason |
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#51 |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,393
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
Those educated, well thought out words of wisdom solidify my point. Good work.
![]() http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ta...-roleplay.html |
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#52 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 71
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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I tried for a good long while, as I see it, to discuss things with Delerak, even though my very first encounter with him on this forum basically amounted to him telling me I was wrong to run my game as MUSH and not a MUD because it didn't do the setting any justice. That was in an ad post and not a discussion, and I found it extremely rude. In these two latest threads, he has kept making absolute statements, such as "If you're coordinating it, you're acting not roleplaying", and throwing around insults such as "MUSHers really know how to metagame". So, no, I didn't start the rudeness. |
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#53 | |||
Senior Member
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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I also don't know that Delerak was making an absolute statement that all MUSHers metagame but rather that the example given by misao appeared to be metagaming. Quote:
Either way, it would probably be a good idea to try and get the discussion back on track by posting some of your work thus far on the FAQ. With any luck, further discussion will focus on that from here on out. What form do you intend to do it in? Will it be categorized (code differences, IC/OOC, etc.) or just in the form of a bunch of questions? Jason |
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#54 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 71
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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I think code differences probably should be handled by someone who actually knows more about the backend, whereas my own interest are more towards the social/cultural side. |
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#55 | |||
Senior Member
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
No doubt, but acting on a perception sometimes is creates a self-fulfilling effect.
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#56 | |
Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,393
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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As for MUSH/MUD differences. They are many, but the difficulty is in finding an expert in two relatively globally enjoyable games that are more generic. One MUSH and one MUD. And then exploring the differences that way. Otherwise you begin an argument over the differences between two MUSHes and two MUDs in the middle of the evaluation. |
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#57 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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MUSH is a codebase derived from TinyMUD. Any mud derived from MUSH is a MUSH (as well as a TinyMUD). Likewise, any mud derived from MOO is a MOO, any mud derived from ROM is a ROM, any mud derived from SMAUG is a SMAUG, and so on. Or is that not what you meant? |
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#58 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 71
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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![]() For example, my understanding (which could be all wrong) is that players on non-MUSH codebases generally don't have many options for coding things unless they get promoted to that sort of access? Whereas on a MUSH, anyone can do things in softcode, though there are limits to what players without the Royal or Wizard flags can do. On the other hand, on a MUSH you frequently have game admin who don't know anything about modifying the actual server code. |
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#59 | |||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
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Many of the more modern DikuMUDs also have their own scripting languages, which provide enough functionality to perform a fair amount of content customisation. Some of the more modern codebases also offer embedded languages (for example NakedMUD), while others are written entirely in interpreted languages and can be modified on the fly. |
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#60 |
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3
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Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
Hello All,
I was really excited to see that someone was going to give a non-newbie Mudder (but clueless none-the-less) a place to learn about other RP options out there. So I log on and start looking for the FAQ's. Instead I was told that most discussions are blocked unless you register. So I did, taking about another five minutes of my lunch break. Then i finally get here only to find sniping about discourtesy and no real help about definitions and distinctions between MUD and MUSHes. I might be able to find it if I scroll down through all the harping back and forth in posts but frankly my lunch hour is half over and it no longer seems important enough to look up. I am sure that your conflict needs resolved to your satisfaction, however could you do it NOT in the section that is supposed to be giving out information. Because bluntly this was a monumental waste of my time and any other person's who came looking for some answers and insight. I feel the need to apologize to any other person searching for information on this topic that has to read MY sniping. But maybe it will save you time and hassle and you can look somewhere else for actual FAQ's. Veela |
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