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Old 09-27-2007, 05:25 PM   #481
Brody
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
Nod, fair enough, but I brought up Runescape specifically because it is listed on TMS (and has more users than every other MUD listed here put together I think).

And, speaking as a long-time subscriber of Runescape, I can't say I ever felt deceived or ripped off by it.
--matt
Not for nothing, but a visit to RuneScape - the massive online adventure game by Jagex Ltd - my first ever - shows the benefits of membership, with $ indicating payment - right out there where everyone can see it.

If they're cool showing it out front on their website, they should be cool specifying in a MUD listing that they accept money. I don't think they're ripping anyone off or being deceptive at all.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:31 PM   #482
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Brody View Post
I don't think they're ripping anyone off or being deceptive at all.
No, neither do I.

So can you give us an example of a MUD that you think is being deceptive?

--matt
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:34 PM   #483
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Unhappy Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
My prediction: There'd be a lot of outrage about it. Why? Because what's useful to people is reality, not wishful thinking.
Yeah. Okay. I suppose, then, the metric should be the observable behavior of the MUD admins, with official policy being the first-blush validation of this. If their actual behavior should contradict their stated policy, people can do the usual outrage and pillorying, and Lasher can change their status if he finds the evidence presented amid the outrage and pillorying to be compelling. Or Lasher can choose to keep out of it, and people can do their outrage and pillorying in reviews. How's that work for you?
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:50 PM   #484
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
Just a point: That doesn't prove or disprove anything. I know if I choose to post under a different identity, all you'll see is a user from an IP that's totally unrelated to my own, perhaps from New York (I live in the Bay Area), or Singapore, or Brisbane, etc.

--matt
Yeah I meant to mention that but somebody distracted me so I didn't quite finish the post
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:52 PM   #485
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
Yeah. Okay. I suppose, then, the metric should be the observable behavior of the MUD admins, with official policy being the first-blush validation of this. If their actual behavior should contradict their stated policy, people can do the usual outrage and pillorying, and Lasher can change their status if he finds the evidence presented amid the outrage and pillorying to be compelling. Or Lasher can choose to keep out of it, and people can do their outrage and pillorying in reviews. How's that work for you?
Hello people. That is why I stated that we are wasting our time with this argument and should allow Lasher to get on to better things like re-implimenting the player reviews. All of this can be taken in a review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerihae
The Defence of New Posters would like to submit the following evidence for consideration:

Of the 36 participants in this thread (including me), only two have the same IP address and they aren't any of the ones you mentioned.

The defence rests
As for this statement. Logos said it succinctly and if you didn't get his response, read Proxy Server, AOL, et al.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:55 PM   #486
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
No, neither do I.

So can you give us an example of a MUD that you think is being deceptive?

--matt
Nope, for the simple fact that I haven't been out hunting for them and I've really never made it my business to police the parsing of game advertising. Beyond that, in my opinion, this thread shouldn't even be about pointing fingers at specific MUDs and making accusations. It's about whether (and how) to quantify some of this extra information about all MUDs, and I favor it.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:41 PM   #487
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
The difference is that behavior that is contrary to the roleplaying mandatory policy is verifiable by simply playing the game. By definition, in fact. If you see someone talking about Simpsons in a roleplaying mandatory game, you can be positive that roleplaying mandatory is a policy and that the reality does not match up to the policy.

Selling gear takes place out of the game, however, not in it. In-game, A giving B an item looks the same pretty much regardless of the transaction that took place out of game to a player.
No, that's not the point I'm making. In the post of yours that I originally responded to regarding this issue, you stated "I'm saying that we should comment on reality, not the wishful thinking that admin policy often represents."

And what I'm saying is that a mud listing itself as "roleplaying mandatory" can be proven inaccurate by logging on to it and talking about the Simpsons, just as a mud listing itself as "G rated" can be proven inaccurate by logging on to it and talking about adult-oriented subject matter.

In other words, if you really believe that the listings shouldn't reflect admin policy, then by the same line of reasoning muds shouldn't be allowed to list themselves as "roleplaying mandatory", "G rated", "Category: Medieval Fantasy", etc. Because, just like the case of players selling items in secret, none of these things can actually be prevented.

Yes, you can ban someone you catch talking about the Simpsons, or having mudsex - but only if you catch them, and only after the fact. There's no way to ensure that someone else won't have mudsex in front of a newbie next week, and banning them afterwards won't change the fact that they were exposed to adult-oriented material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
RMT = trade between players, not first party sales from the admin. Players typically don't provide each other with receipts when trading stuff between themselves.
Ah, my mistake. But if we're talking specifically about players, then it goes back to the points I made above. If Lasher agrees that basing the listings on mud policies is acceptable, then it's fine to simply ignore transactions that are outside of the muds control. If he doesn't, then obviously the whole listing system will need an overhaul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
If you're talking about first-party sales from admins, then you can produce a receipt if and only if the admin in question chooses to provide one.
If it's an online sale, there'll be records - paypal, credit card, whatever. It's true that a player driving/flying to visit the mud owner with a suitcase full of unmarked bank notes wouldn't leave a trail, but I think we could overlook the possibility of such transactions without overly damaging the reliability of the listings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Hello people. That is why I stated that we are wasting our time with this argument and should allow Lasher to get on to better things like re-implimenting the player reviews. All of this can be taken in a review.
Lasher created this thread, and he's more than capable of closing it if he feels it's no longer beneficial. Likewise it's up to Lasher, not you, to decide what the TMS priorities are, and which things are worth implementing.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:57 PM   #488
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Lightbulb Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
As for this statement. Logos said it succinctly and if you didn't get his response, read Proxy Server, AOL, et al.
He also said some things that relate to the fact that accusing people who disagree with you of being sock puppets is a very common, very poor argumentation tactic out in the wilds of teh intarwebs.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:49 PM   #489
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
He also said some things that relate to the fact that accusing people who disagree with you of being sock puppets is a very common, very poor argumentation tactic out in the wilds of teh intarwebs.
If I did that, I'd accuse half the posters here. Please, CP, keep it in context. I showed proof of the posers and proof that this was an Admin argument not a player argument. I see nothing that shows otherwise.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:53 PM   #490
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
Lasher created this thread, and he's more than capable of closing it if he feels it's no longer beneficial. Likewise it's up to Lasher, not you, to decide what the TMS priorities are, and which things are worth implementing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds
(Stripped from post #450)
There are likely 10 or 20 more priorities a lot higher than this one. I personally don't know Lasher's priority list and am certainly not dictating it to him, he can make his own choices, but let's be clear about something: This thread is not so long and huge because PLAYERS are dieing to have a new definition and search engine with four or five boxes about FREE games.
How about reading the posts and you will see I never said I'm dictating anything.
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:08 PM   #491
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
After researching as I stated I would in my previous post,
here are the facts:

...
2. Tricky, a relatively new poster (seems like a player) posted basically stating that there was a lot of arguing (post #356 for your edification).
...

So there you have it. Some research and the reason I posted what I did, Logos. I think it also shows a tremendous lack (as I stated in a post #450) of player concern but mostly Admin's arguing with eachother about the meaning of Free.
I am no ones "sock puppet"

As for the topic of this thread, I still maintain that "Free" means free, as in - "Without cost. With no incumbrance."

Tricky

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Old 09-27-2007, 08:24 PM   #492
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Question Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I showed proof of the posers
You showed what? I didn't notice your laundry list proving anything. Who exactly did you prove to be a "poser"?

(Wow, it's just like hanging out with skaters. Except some of them actually know that the word they're using is "poseur". Try dictionary.com.)
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Old 09-27-2007, 10:09 PM   #493
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
4. Atryeus posted (as a player I'm assuming) and made some comments, again on both sides as shown in post #322.
I'm not a player. And given I've been a (mostly lurking) member here since 2003 without ever once having somebody's arm shoved up my fundament, I'm pretty sure I'm not a sock puppet.

I'm also pretty sure I haven't made comments on both sides, at least not in this thread (which two sides are we talking about anyways?). I prefer the four-option method over the current two-option method and over the similarly useless two-option method that's been proposed in this thread or the two-option-but-is-really-a-nine-or-ten-fuzzy-overlapping-options method. I'm not even particularly fond of the five-option method, though that is largely because the current wording for it somewhat collapses the neat and distinct categories of the four-option method.
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Old 09-27-2007, 10:15 PM   #494
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
You showed what? I didn't notice your laundry list proving anything. Who exactly did you prove to be a "poser"?

(Wow, it's just like hanging out with skaters. Except some of them actually know that the word they're using is "poseur". Try dictionary.com.)
Poser dude, as in "poser: a person who poses." Like, duh?

As for what did I prove? Um, try reading what I posted. I can't be giving multiple explanations to you if you don't read. But I proved that it is MOSTLY ADMINS not PLAYERS that care about this thread. As for posers, sheesh, guess I have to quote myself. I stated numbers 3 and 6 they are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post

3. Arabis logged on only to post on this thread and only twice (unverified player as shown in post #335) and posted as I claimed. Arabis has not since been back. Hint hint.

6. Lurker 94 posted (post #285), a player for the 4 option system. Hasn't posted since. Though this one I might give credence to as he states in his only other post that he is usually just hiding in the background watching. You decide.
Quick, send them a PM, maybe they'll rush here and deny it!
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:36 PM   #495
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

So because I am not an avid poster here, I am discredited.

The reason I do not post here was stated in my posts. The general attitude of the majority of users here is very hostile. I try to stay away from time bombs.

Believe what you will, no skin off my back. Though, I am logged in fairly often just reading, I didn't just log on twice and only to post here. I just do not post.

Prime example of why I do not post here and probably will not post here again.

Last edited by Arabis : 09-28-2007 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Grammar.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:20 AM   #496
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Arabis View Post
So because I am not an avid poster here, I am discredited.
No sir, one person with no higher or lower standing here than yourself suggesting that a person's post count might be related to how much we should listen to them is a far cry from discredited. Your post was read and your opinion noted, they all were.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:32 AM   #497
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

I didn't mean to insinuate that I had been discredited by the administration, my reply was directed to Newworlds. I made my post in haste being, truthfully, offended by the accusation and failed to quote him or her. My apologies.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:48 AM   #498
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
Yeah. Okay. I suppose, then, the metric should be the observable behavior of the MUD admins, with official policy being the first-blush validation of this. If their actual behavior should contradict their stated policy, people can do the usual outrage and pillorying, and Lasher can change their status if he finds the evidence presented amid the outrage and pillorying to be compelling. Or Lasher can choose to keep out of it, and people can do their outrage and pillorying in reviews. How's that work for you?
That's the problem though. This behavior isn't inherently observable. There is no evidence to be had of an admin wishes to ensure there is none.

--matt
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:04 AM   #499
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
And what I'm saying is that a mud listing itself as "roleplaying mandatory" can be proven inaccurate by logging on to it and talking about the Simpsons, just as a mud listing itself as "G rated" can be proven inaccurate by logging on to it and talking about adult-oriented subject matter.
Nod, I understand that. Both of those are, by their very definition, observable within the MUD.

An admin selling something to a player is inherently not observable unless the admin wishes to make it so.

Quote:
In other words, if you really believe that the listings shouldn't reflect admin policy, then by the same line of reasoning muds shouldn't be allowed to list themselves as "roleplaying mandatory", "G rated", "Category: Medieval Fantasy", etc. Because, just like the case of players selling items in secret, none of these things can actually be prevented.
It's not really about whether it can be prevented so much as it is about what is actually fundamentally verifiable. In the one case (roleplaying mandatory/g-rated) we're talking about something that happens within the MUD. In the other case, we're talking about something that happens outside the MUD. When someone sells an item to another player for real money (whether admin or player), this is something that happens outside the MUD. The transfer of the actual item happens inside the MUD, but that action is 100% indistinguishable in and of itself from a "legitimate" in-game purchase. (It's the context around it that can help operators catch some RMT transactors.)

Quote:
Yes, you can ban someone you catch talking about the Simpsons, or having mudsex - but only if you catch them, and only after the fact. There's no way to ensure that someone else won't have mudsex in front of a newbie next week, and banning them afterwards won't change the fact that they were exposed to adult-oriented material.
Indeed, but one can actually catch it. One can't catch RMT unless one of the parties is sloppy, because the "violation" happens outside of the game.

Quote:
Ah, my mistake. But if we're talking specifically about players, then it goes back to the points I made above. If Lasher agrees that basing the listings on mud policies is acceptable, then it's fine to simply ignore transactions that are outside of the muds control. If he doesn't, then obviously the whole listing system will need an overhaul.
Sure, if Lasher agrees with anything re:TMS it's fine.

Ignoring transactions outside of the muds control is like writing a guidebook that leads tourists to believe there are no pickpockets in New York because it's against the law there though.

Quote:
If it's an online sale, there'll be records - paypal, credit card, whatever. It's true that a player driving/flying to visit the mud owner with a suitcase full of unmarked bank notes wouldn't leave a trail, but I think we could overlook the possibility of such transactions without overly damaging the reliability of the listings.
Cash or money order transactions leave no trail that is verifiable by TMS. We receive thousands of dollars of payments in cash/money orders each month, so I don't think it's really accurate to dismiss those methods as difficult. You don't need to drive or fly. You just need to stick an envelope in your mailbox. Darn easy to do.

--matt
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:48 AM   #500
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Re: The Cold Hard Facts

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Originally Posted by Brody View Post
More information isn't bad.
Sure it can be. If it is inaccurate information, it is bad. If the information is provided solely for the benefit of a select few, it is bad. If it will create more flamewars and arguments on these forums, it is bad. If Lasher gives into 3-4 admins and makes this change, it is bad. When you reward a certain behavior, you can expect such behavior to continue. It won't be long until those same 3-4 admins are creating a new flamewar to change something else on TMS to their personal benefit.

Nobody is against this because they are against information being made available to players. On Threshold, a player cannot even create a character without having every aspect of our payment system(s) explained in detail. So we don't hide anything from anyone. When we required payment to play, we labeled ourselves pay to play here on TMS. We have since dropped that requirement.

The problem is that the options as proposed are designed to benefit a specific type of mud at the expense of all others. Specifically, muds that sell merchandise are trying to continue to call themselves free when they are no more free than muds that sell anything else.

Also, the idea of "rewarded in game" or "not rewarded in game" is a complete farce. When players buy something from a mud, or "donate" to the mud, most of them will expect something in return. Whether it is a material reward or just greater access to the admins, they are going to expect it. And the reality is, they will almost always get it. So trying to differentiate between whether or not a payment is rewarded in game or not is just an outrageous and bogus differentiation. People can stomp and fume as much as they want that they "never give such people any advantage!!!!!!!!", but I just don't believe it and I never will. I also think it is incredibly naive to make such a claim, and even more naive to believe it.

The fact that the real motive behind this is a handful of MUD admins trying to gain competitive advantage is what motivated me to contribute to this thread from the beginning.

I have been in full support of the two options that are actually verifiable and truthful.

Does your game take money (in any form) or not?

That is ultimately the main issue that players care about.
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