The Mercthievia staff are horribly unethical. Liars and thieves.. They ought to be shunned. They deserve a good shunning and a smack everytime they open their prevaricating gobs.

[Jazuela]

Just as an FYI, I googled over to the official Star Wars website, to see if I could find any actual policies. I found some.

Edited to add: Bold emphasis mine.

Seems pretty clear to me that anyone offering a Star Wars-themed game to the public (meaning, not for private use) without getting permission from Lucasfilms is violating the copyright of Lucasfilms' Star Wars.

Whether they choose to enforce the copyright is another matter entirely, but I kinda agree - if you are violating the rights to someone else's property, you really have little call to criticise someone else for doing the same thing.

[KaVir]

Anyone know what Wizards of the Coast's policy is towards usage of their campaign settings, out of interest? Just curious, as Armageddon certainly borrows a lot from Dark Sun (certainly far more than just an area based on the theme, like 4 Dimensions does with Star Wars).

[Sanvean]

The game did start with a Dark Sun setting, which we've acknowleged, but over the past decade since I've come on staff, we've tried to move the game away from that for precisely that reason, going through and removing references where we can without tampering with the flavor of the game, and I think we've gotten much farther away from it than many of the MUDs who share D&Dish type origins.

I'm not sure how this has turned into a "let's get ****y about Armageddon's origins because one of its players said something about Star Wars" thread, but I've pretty much given up on trying to steer it back into something useful. Molly, if you want, I'm sure we've got some good fiction to contribute - most of them are listed at . Perhaps we could set up some sort of collaborative group for this - I'm hoping Brody might be interested as well. If people interested in that sort of collaboration to promote mudding through essays, fiction, etc, want to email me at , I'd be glad to set something up. I work with a couple of online writers' groups and this would be pretty similar.

[Sanvean]

Apologies for the double, but in going back to look at the thread, my offer's redundant since Molly's made it already. I'll email her.

[Molly]

[Threshold]

It says "private, non-commercial."

That means it has to be both PRIVATE *and* non-commercial.

4 Dimensions is *not* private.

[the_logos]

Which would fall under private, non-commercial. As Threshold pointed out, 4 Dimensions is public, not private. What you're doing is the same as screening a Star Wars movie for the public, but just not charging them for entry, which is patently a violation of Lucas's IP rights to his movies.

But hey, don't let that stop you from slamming Medievia for supposedly doing exactly the same thing (I say supposedly because they don't actually openly advertise that they're doing it, unlike you.)

--matt

[Jazuela]

It's also important to bear in mind, KaVir, that I am not an administrator, owner, or even an IMM on Armageddon. I have no control over their policies and procedures, and the only input I am granted is that of a player.

I'd never even HEARD of Dark Sun until I started playing Armageddon, and even then had no idea it was the name of a WoC campaign - since I've never played any tabletop RPGs in my life and don't know anyone outside of the internet that has, or does.

I wouldn't know a Dark Sun reference in Arm if it slammed me in the face. So - quoting the link from -my- post, as though you are singling me out for daring to do so - is meaningless. I'm not a hypocrite because I have nothing to do with Armageddon, other than the fact that I play it.

Oh and it also supposedly shares a common theme, or similar somethings, with Dune, a book which I have never had any interest in reading. You can't really claim, imply, or even suggest that I am responsible for that, and therefore am a hypocrite - since I'm not on staff of Arm, never have been, and likely never will be.

[John]

Sure he can. If you think the Armeggedon property is copyright infringement then you're a hypocrite for continuing to play on it. I personally don't think it is, lest anyone misundertand the finer point. I don't play the mud because it's simply not my preferred style of roleplaying game, though if it were it would be one of three or four I'd play.

OTOH, Mercthievia is pirated warez. No if's, and's, or but's about it. The difference between Mercthievia and a Star Wars mud is the same difference between premeditated murder and an accidental shooting. Mercthievia has no legitimate defense. The latter does frankly because Lucas actively encouraged it.

Luckily, I can spread the love around freely on this issue without being charged with hypocrisy. *ROFL*

Good advice and I'd think that would go without saying. One definately doesn't want accept any "Luke Skywalker is a homo" stories. Though I'm suprised LucasFilms got the take down on that one. I'd have thought it would have been protected under parody. Then again, I can undertand why Star Wars would see that as tarnishing their image and a really gay thing to do to with their characters.

No, not the same thing. The little bastard Vryce stripped the copyright notices right out of the Diku code. Frankly I'm tired of the endless moral equivocation crapola between people doing non-commercial fan fiction and premeditated and blatant knavery.

Ah nevermind. There's enough red herrings around here to choke a seal colony.

[Traithe]

[red herring]

Whoa - that has to be one of the coolest phrases I've ever seen the word "premeditated" used in. I think I'm going to bust this one out on my crimlaw exam tomorrow. Mua!

[/red herring]

[the_logos]

Without casting judgements about it, to me they're both just using someone else's IP in a way they do not have permission to do so. There are legitimate moral systems that don't recognize any property rights, intellectual or otherwise. Happily for those of us creating our own IP, a lot of men in uniforms with guns and batons ultimately ensure we control our IP to some extent.

--matt

[Jazuela]

The derailed issue here..

Is that one administrator of a game that supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product, is criticizing the administrator of another game, which supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product.

I am neither the administrator of a game, nor the owner of a product being used by someone else.

In the issue at hand, I can in no possible way be construed as a hypocrite, because I have nothing at stake on either side of the arguement. I was merely pointing out an irony I noticed.

[the_logos]

No matter what they say about what you did after the War, Jazuela, I'll always be your fan. I know that Papa Joe was just too...####...sexy to resist. Hypocrite? Definitely not. Lover of mustachioed Russian men? Absolutely.

[Jazuela]

Wow, that went right over my head. I'm sure it's some kind of reference to something, but I have no idea what.

But just for the record: I was only 6 during the Viet Nam war, which the government insisted (at the time) wasn't a war - it was a "military action" (would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Would a war by any other name smell as bad?)

As for Papa Joe, he's not Russian, nor is he anyone's Papa that I'm aware of. Certainly no whelp of mine, that much I can be sure of, since I eat my young.

[the_logos]

Do I have to come right out and say that you and Stalin (Papa Joe) were something more than friends in the years after WWII? There's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm still your fan. His animal magnetism was obvious.

[Jazuela]

Uh, maybe you have me confused with someone else? Or is this one of those "When did you stop beating your wife" kinds of things?

WWII is way before my time, Grandpa.