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Old 06-09-2002, 06:07 PM   #61
Mason
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ June 09 2002,4:14 pm)
It's also worth mentioning the Hwa Rang (Flowering Knights), who learned to kill an opponent with a single linear thrust punch which was capable of breaking through wooden armour.
Forgive the sarcasm, but so what? Plenty of people in modern times have been killed by a punch. I can kick and punch through a wooden board; its not that hard as long as you strike with the grain. There is a difference in developing so strong a punch that it will have a devastating effect and the "death touch," which supposedly kills people through a mystic transfer of energy.

Moreover, I have yet to see anyone address the information contained in the link I provided. It demonstrates quite clearly that most of these people advertising how to kill, or knock people out, with a single touch are merely con artists. Look at Black Belt and Kung Fu magazine and you see tons of advertisements for that crap. Its just a bunch of people trying to make money off naive people who watch old kung fu flicks and think people can really do that stuff.
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Old 06-09-2002, 07:14 PM   #62
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Forgive the sarcasm, but so what?
It was a response to the posts about punching through armour. If you can't be bothered to read the thread before posting, at least have the decency to refrain from sarcastic jibes fueled by that ignorance.

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Moreover, I have yet to see anyone address the information contained in the link I provided.
I have no interest in debating that part of the discussion - and unlike certain other people I do not comment on parts of the thread which don't interest me. I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.
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Old 06-09-2002, 10:45 PM   #63
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As Mason said, KaVir, "so what?".

I'd think that at least several people on these boards, myself included, and probably you (assuming your claims were correct), could punch through said wooden armor. There is a vast difference in metal armor vs wooden armor. I'd likely bust up my hand and that'd be it on metal armor. The thread has kind of jumped from point to point, but the point at the heart of the matter is that - you can't punch through metal armor. Period.

Thel: Mmm. Definitely. Eastern arts, at "low" levels, suck in fights. It is almost better to be entirely untrained if we are speaking of low levels of training. Of course, I'd like to see a spar of the Doshu against your users of JKD and such - that'd be quite interesting, imo.

-D
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Old 06-09-2002, 11:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ June 09 2002,7:14 pm)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forgive the sarcasm, but so what?
It was a response to the posts about punching through armour.  If you can't be bothered to read the thread before posting, at least have the decency to refrain from sarcastic jibes fueled by that ignorance.

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Moreover, I have yet to see anyone address the information contained in the link I provided.
I have no interest in debating that part of the discussion - and unlike certain other people I do not comment on parts of the thread which don't interest me.  I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed did we?  

1.  The thread is on a lot more than just punching through armor.  I don't know what made you so mad at me, but I think if you re-read my post again, you will see that it was not addressed in a harsh tone.  However, you felt the need to go postal.  If you had read the whole thread, you would see that this was not the first time I had posted on this thread and that I was obviously aware of the conversation.  And, the first part of my post was in direct response to yours.  If you don't want people to respond to your post then what did you post it for?

2.  I said "I have yet to see anyone" in my post.  I did not say "I did not see Kavir address the information."  If you noticed, I started a new paragraph.  This might signal to some people that a new thought was being expressed.  Taken to its next logical step, one might consider that since I said "anyone," and started a new paragraph, that I was not specifically addressing you anymore.

3.  Your last two sentences make no sense.  You say that you don't comment on parts of the thread that don't interest you.  But, you just did.  Then you ask me to extend you the same curtesy.  So, you are asking me to not respond to the posts that don't interest me?  That's fine; I don't.

4.  As far as requesting curtesy, here is one for you:  Try not to go haywire on someone who was merely responding to your post.  Curtesy is a two-way street.  Those who expect it ought to give it as well.
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Old 06-10-2002, 04:29 AM   #65
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The point was that Shao_Long's claim about the Okinawans punching through armour was partially correct, but irrelevent, because that armour was made from bamboo, not metal. In other words, your whole "punching through metal armour" argument is based on a misunderstanding of samuri armour. The point about the wooden armour was simply a side note, to point out that the Okinawans weren't the only ones who learned to punch through armour.
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Old 06-10-2002, 03:14 PM   #66
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i meant metal armor when i said it.not all the samurai armor was made of 'bamboo'.in fact,most of samurai's non-metal armor was actually stronger then the metal ones.
althought the okinawan peasantswerent breaking through most of types of armor.Only people who were teaching them.
surely,it wasnt like the european plate mails.


Now,speaking about eastern vs western martial arts...

Most of the movements in eastern arts really require great grace in them,usually they really look beatiful,but not because they were created to look nice,and kick hard only as long as its possible.Simply eastern martial arts are MUCH harder to learn,and most people who claim they know them, actually know nothing about them.Thats why it looks like that westernized martial arts are much more efficient in combat. Its pretty hard to actually learn 'classical' eastern martial arts well,just because its very hard to find anyone who can teach you well in them.
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Old 06-10-2002, 05:41 PM   #67
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Ok Shao Long, I'm not sure where you get your info from, but my comments were based on questioning martial artists who were trained in Japan and Okinawa, and firsthand observation. I've studied traditional Aikido for years, and I've recently taken up westernized competitive Tae Kwan Do. I'm now sure how it is on the mainland US, or wherever you live, but in Hawaii there are many legitimate sensei in almost any eastern art you can think of.

Traditional eastern arts train you to set aside your instinctual reactions to combat, and move with grace and precision. It takes many many years of training simply to develop the discipline necessary to do this. Until you do, your training is mostly useless, and, possibly even a hinderance in combat. Aside from this, proficiency in combat is only partially the goal of most eastern arts. In some more "extreme" cases, such as Aikido or Tai Chi, proficiency in combat isn't a major goal at all, and is only achieved indirectly as a result of the exercises.

Western arts train you to hone and extend your instinctual reactions into effective combat responses. The sole goal of these arts is the ability to take someone down in a sparring match, or on the streets. Unless the eastern martial artist has achieved the discipline of mind required to utilize his art in a real combat situation, a match between an eastern and western martial artist will usually end with the western artist victorious.

This has nothing to do with the availability, or lack thereof, of qualified instructors.
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Old 06-11-2002, 06:12 AM   #68
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Bleh,after half a year in pankrateon or some modern karate section,surely you'll have larger potential in a fight then after half of year in classical,especially good ,say,kung fu school.

But after five years, the one from classical would smashed 3 from modern,most probably.

One nice example i've got..based on personal experience..

5 years ago my brother decided to study something to defend himself. Same decided to do my cousin. I persuaded brother to study kung fu in the same dojo where I did, while my cousin was going to boxing section,and,once in a week to pankrateon (REALLY dirty street fighting) section.
4 months passed.
Brother was cursing,but still studying.Cousin kicked some bad boys who apparantely had problems with him. After a year he stopped learning all this stuff. Actually,this is more then enough to defend yourself,I agree.
After 2 years,brother was sparring with cousin. Brother won. Easily.
Cousin now goes to the same school. Not just because its fighting techinques are better. Moral training is very important too.

huh,what a stupid story
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Old 06-11-2002, 07:00 AM   #69
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That, however, is an invalid comparison. Your brother had been training for twice as long as your cousin. On top of that, your cousin seems to have been trained primarily in boxing. I doubt those results would be duplicated had your cousin a) trained just as long as your brother, and b) focused on pankrateon (well.. not so sure of this one, as all I know about it is what I could glean from your post), or another westernized martial art such as BJJ or JKD.

Another question that I'd have to ask would be about the format of the sparring that took place. Was it structured tournament-style, with no-contact zones, barring of locks and other assorted rules? I'd have to assume that, setting aside the possibility that your brother and cousin hate eachother for some reason, it wasn't no holds barred full contact. This would also favor your brother, as, unless your cousin was willing to seriously injure or maim your brother, he couldn't actually employ the full range of techniques typically taught in arts developed for street fighting (no groin shots, clawing of eyes, biting, etc).
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Old 06-12-2002, 01:38 AM   #70
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Bleh,after half a year in pankrateon or some modern karate section,surely you'll have larger potential in a fight then after half of year in classical,especially good ,say,kung fu school.
After a relatively short amount of time, (The first week to ~5-8 years, dependant on the individual), anyone will be better in a fight if they study a western art vs an eastern art. But, that depends on the art.

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But after five years, the one from classical would smashed 3 from modern,most probably.
This is incorrect. The modern art, assuming you speak of 'western', could lose just as easily as the eastern art. Just as a -jutsu style could lose to a -do style.

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Originally Posted by
One nice example i've got..based on personal experience..

5 years ago my brother decided to study something to defend himself. Same decided to do my cousin. I persuaded brother to study kung fu in the same dojo where I did, while my cousin was going to boxing section,and,once in a week to pankrateon (REALLY dirty street fighting) section.
4 months passed.
Pakrateon is a lost art, hailing from the days of Greece. The last known practitioner lived in 400A.D.. Whomever taught this supposed style was a liar and a charlatan. As for boxing - that is not to learn how to fight. Period. I would expect a shodan Aikido user to win against a highly-experienced boxer.

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Brother was cursing,but still studying.Cousin kicked some bad boys who apparantely had problems with him. After a year he stopped learning all this stuff. Actually,this is more then enough to defend yourself,I agree.
After 2 years,brother was sparring with cousin. Brother won. Easily.
So, let me get this straight. Your brother had twice the training, in a school that actually exists, that actually teaches you how to fight, in a sparring match that obviously restricts the person from using any techniques taught in said non-existant school?

Shao, I'll say this once. The so-called "Street-fighting" schools cannot truly spar. Ever.

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Cousin now goes to the same school. Not just because its fighting techinques are better. Moral training is very important too.
Moral training? That is a relic of an antiquatated (sp) thought pattern. Moral training has nothing to do with fighting whatsoever. Your points are utterly irrelevant.

While the training does have an affect when it is mental, moral training has no affect whatsoever. In a style I currently study, we are taught to kill, Shao. There is no pussy-footing around the subject. Moral training can be only a hindrance - if you hesitate, even a moment in a real fight, you have lost if the opponent has any skill. After first contact, fights effectively end in 3 seconds. You can spout all the #### you want about 'moral training', but in the end, it only has a detrimental affect if you are training to fight, and not for self-defense or some similar "half-assed" reason.

I have one question for you, Shao. Now you are naming a nonexistant art, or one that is taught by a charlatan. If you do not even know this most basic of information about such an obviously fake art, then how do you possibly consider yourself knowledgeable enough to detail how hard someone can punch?

-D
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Old 06-12-2002, 05:20 AM   #71
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Pakrateon is a lost art, hailing from the days of Greece. The last known practitioner lived in 400A.D.. Whomever taught this supposed style was a liar and a charlatan.
If you mean "Pankration", it's still around. It might not be the original form (if there ever was such a thing), but then you could say the same about almost any form of combat, armed or unarmed.

http://www.pankration.com/pankration_history.html

Scroll down and read the section "What is a modern day Pankratiast?"
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Old 06-12-2002, 09:03 AM   #72
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Speaking about 'pankration' or whatever,I really never heard this name before my cousin started studiyng here.Perhaps these just took some old name to sound cooler,I dont know. But after really short time he learned well to..defend himself. I really dont care about the names.

Now,as an answer to you,Dulan..here it is :
Boxers know how to fight really well too.
and,about all the other stuff,I wont answer to you on this topic anymore.Obviously,you think you know too much already,and I think you're wrong,but you dont listen to me anyways,so why by the hell I should waste my time on you ?
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Old 06-13-2002, 12:57 AM   #73
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I'd say Clint Eastwood... you cant block a bullet,

One of those 10mm slugs opens up to about 70 caliber when it hits, leaving an exit wound you could toss a cat through

--The Onion
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Old 06-18-2002, 01:23 PM   #74
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Old 06-18-2002, 05:14 PM   #75
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you cant block a bullet
But what if you could catch them in your teeth?  Tiamak would definitely have to be the biggest badass then.  
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