[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by prof1515 This is a thread asking for views from veterans of Role-play Intensive MUDs. The better question is why are people who are not veterans, be it staff or players, of Role-Play Intensive MUDs even commenting, much less introducing comments about OOC channels?

This is a good point. I created this thread in the hopes that something positive would come from it by getting some input from veterans of MUDs I thought we were losing from the community. I actually thought there was a change in the attitude of those who cling to the term RPI and perhaps I could learn something from the group. I was wrong and have only found that the same attitudes exist. Lesson learned. Good luck in your endeavors.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by prof1515 I checked out your webpage and found the information there severely lacking. Until there's sufficient information regarding the game world and other aspects, I could hardly be expected to give it a fair judgement as to its quality. Rather than prejudice my views by seeing an incomplete game, I chose to defer creating a character until you guys were up and running.

I believe this was done on purpose. Very little information was given so that players could explore the situation without being tainted by external resources. When DF posted about a short story prior to alpha, he posted it with tons of spoiler warnings. Some even posted that they were not going to read the story because they didn't want to spoil the story.

I wrote for small parts of Atonement RPI when they were just about to go into pre-Alpha, and I was given very little information about the storyline itself. I was just given a lot of details about what I was specifically writing. I definitely understood that our parts were segregated pretty heavily in order to preserve that lack of information and mystery. I was very intrigued by this way of story-building and have always been very interested in the way Atonement was presented. It seemed out of the norm and actually pretty newbie friendly. Everyone goes in with an equal lack of information which seems to even the playing field.

Ultimately, and I could be very wrong here, I think that we're ignoring the biggest factor in why older muds in general (RPI, RPE, Hack n Slask, etc.) have seen a decline in playerbase is because our playerbase is getting older. As the playerbase gets older, a lot of people disappear for no reason other than real life gets in the way big time. And when real life comes knocking in a serious way, things that we once loved a great deal begin to show their flaws, and a lot of us remember the glory days of when we could play without many distractions and when the headaches were worth it. I know that as I get older and more responsibilities get shoveled onto my shoulders, I'm less patient with anything I do for entertainment. When movies suck, I'm more ready to leave. When games suck, I give them less of a chance. RPIs are already extremely demanding environments, and perhaps, when you have less time to play and less time to be immersed because your boss is screaming in your ear (as opposed to hanging out in a computer lab until 5 am), that one dude going OOC is about 1000% times more annoying than he used to be. Many of the established RPIs out there are pretty old, so I would assume the playerbase has been around for nearly as long.

Just a thought that has nothing to do with game design or a degradation in the community.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by prof1515 This is a thread asking for views from veterans of Role-play Intensive MUDs. The better question is why are people who are not veterans, be it staff or players, of Role-Play Intensive MUDs even commenting, much less introducing comments about OOC channels?

You're absolutely right. Please return to bashing the muds we are still playing and and enjoying, unfettered. There's no reason why we should have any objection to you putting forward the idea that when - you - and Delerek,, that pillar of RP, played these games they were wonderful. They were in their heyday. But not you're gone and they suck. And worse still they all unrealistically offer female characters, not to mention female players more interesting role choices than just blow up sex toy, or the tired cliche of the spider who takes power though a man too stupid to know he's been manipulated. If only the two of you would hurry up and finish building the only real and valid RPI's that will ever exist. Please. Hurry.

Absolutely. Sorry for interrupting. As you were.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by Newworlds This is a good point. I created this thread in the hopes that something positive would come from it by getting some input from veterans of MUDs I thought we were losing from the community. I actually thought there was a change in the attitude of those who cling to the term RPI and perhaps I could learn something from the group. I was wrong and have only found that the same attitudes exist. Lesson learned. Good luck in your endeavors.

You're not really a big fan of RPI's are you? Did it really not occurr to you that soliciting opinions with people who left because they were unhappy was slanted to show RPI's in the worst possible light?

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Fifi You're not really a big fan of RPI's are you? Did it really not occurr to you that soliciting opinions with people who left because they were unhappy was slanted to show RPI's in the worst possible light?

Yeah, but Par and Prof haven't really left. They left specific RPIs, but they're both involved in projects of their own that are RPIs. I think they're disillusioned with specific GAMES just as many people get over time.

Honestly, the stuff that came up is just general arguments over game design issues. You just have a lot of people convinced that they are right because they have seen specific mechanics work on specific games. Again, it boils down to an argument about the quality of RP to be found on certain games, and that's always personal.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by Milawe Yeah, but Par and Prof haven't really left. They left specific RPIs, but they're both involved in projects of their own that are RPIs. I think they're disillusioned with specific GAMES just as many people get over time.

Exactly. They have their own Agenda.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Fifi Exactly. They have their own Agenda.

They still fight the good fight for RPIs in general. That's why there's all these arguments!

[Fifi]

I don't think saying that all the open RPI's now suck and have declined is fighting the good fight.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Fifi I don't think saying that all the open RPI's now suck and have declined is fighting the good fight.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Fifi You're not really a big fan of RPI's are you? Did it really not occurr to you that soliciting opinions with people who left because they were unhappy was slanted to show RPI's in the worst possible light?

I'm a fan of the MUD genre regardless of genre. I'm not a fan of the term RPI, I think it lame, but that's not this discussion. My point was to help veterans of the genre return and voice opinions on what could bring them back into the genre and MUDing.

Whether I believe Armeggedon or Shadows of Isildor completely blow or not is irrellevant. But consider this: I have recommended both of those games to other players seeking such. I have also recommended numerous game genres not like NWA for those who seek these genres. Can you say the same of these folks? Not bloody likely.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I'm a fan of the MUD genre regardless of genre. I'm not a fan of the term RPI, I think it lame, but that's not this discussion. My point was to help veterans of the genre return and voice opinions on what could bring them back into the genre and MUDing. Whether I believe Armeggedon or Shadows of Isildor completely blow or not is irrellevant. But consider this: I have recommended both of those games to other players seeking such. I have also recommended numerous game genres not like NWA for those who seek these genres. Can you say the same of these folks? Not bloody likely.

If veterans of the game wanted to return, I'm sure they'd manage to figure out a way, without the "help" of someone who spends an inordinate amount of time criticizing the genre and nitpicking its name.

Your point was to get your name, and therefore the name of your game, on each of the "most recent posts" lists on the main page of TMS. This is what you do every 10 days or so, it's a pattern that regular viewers don't fail to notice. You're not fooling anyone.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I'm a fan of the MUD genre regardless of genre. I'm not a fan of the term RPI, I think it lame, but that's not this discussion. My point was to help veterans of the genre return and voice opinions on what could bring them back into the genre and MUDing. Whether I believe Armeggedon or Shadows of Isildor completely blow or not is irrellevant. But consider this: I have recommended both of those games to other players seeking such. I have also recommended numerous game genres not like NWA for those who seek these genres. Can you say the same of these folks? Not bloody likely.

I absolutely cannot say the same. That's very kind of you to point people who might enjoy games you don't play to those games anyway. Thank you.

That said, this particular thread began to imply that RPI's were in a decline. And when people pointed out that the statements made were opinions not facts they were told they were in the wrong thread. That's an issue.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Milawe Ultimately, and I could be very wrong here, I think that we're ignoring the biggest factor in why older muds in general (RPI, RPE, Hack n Slask, etc.) have seen a decline in playerbase is because our playerbase is getting older.

I understand this point but do not see it at NWA. If anything our playerbase (a roleplay enforced game or RPE) is growing not shrinking.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Your point was to get your name, and therefore the name of your game, on each of the "most recent posts" lists on the main page of TMS. This is what you do every 10 days or so, it's a pattern that regular viewers don't fail to notice. You're not fooling anyone.

Oh my gosh. Paranoid much? If I could post anonymously to prove you wrong I would. I enjoy TMS. I enjoy the MUD community. I enjoy promoting many of the good MUDs here not just NWA. This kind of accusation is simply argumentative and spiteful.

Oh incidentally, I post probably about every other day or so. Where have you been?

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Fifi I absolutely cannot say the same. That's very kind of you to point people who might enjoy games you don't play to those games anyway. Thank you. That said, this particular thread began to imply that RPI's were in a decline. And when people pointed out that the statements made were opinions not facts they were told they were in the wrong thread. That's an issue.

That is an issue, I agree. I hope I was not one that did so. I certainly want discussion and information and even opinion, but not negative innuendo.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I understand this point but do not see it at NWA. If anything our playerbase (a roleplay enforced game or RPE) is growing not shrinking.

Of all the games we're discusisng, I believe that NWA is the newest one. In addition, I think you did a "relaunch" recently or perhaps you came out of Beta. Some of these games have been running for over a decade. The playerbase grew up with many of these games and new demands came of their time. On our game alone, we've got people who have disappeared because they got married, had kids (most common), or have gone through a lot of personal tragedy. I think real life gets in the way for older games more than we know a lot of times. I recently talked to a player who came back after being gone for nearly five years. She left to raise her son who is now old enough not to need so much hands-on attention anymore.

Just last year, we found out that one of our players who had not been logging on had been killed in the war. Threshold alone has suffered the loss of several players to death. When you've been around long enough, you lose dedicated players in the oddest, and sometimes worst, ways.

Perhaps games are loser their players to crappy game design or administrative changes. I don't know. I just think the pressures of "growing up" can cause players to be less patient with a game.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Milawe Of all the games we're discusisng, I believe that NWA is the newest one. In addition, I think you did a "relaunch" recently or perhaps you came out of Beta.

Perhaps you are right. NWA has only been around this century (2000+) and did a playerwipe 2 years ago which was quite massive. So it is true we aren't really in the same starting point as some of the games that began in the big era of MUDS.

How cool is it though to say your game has been around since last century.

[DonathinFrye]

It's unfortunate that these threads always turn into this. There are some inciteful posts here, and some that should be forgotten.

A) To Prof: You and I just have different generations of opinion on how to re-create a vital RPI and maintain a high quality of roleplay. Anyone who knows me knows that story and roleplay are not to be compromised for marketing reasons, in my opinion. I can accept our difference of opinions, and hope that your game is successful when it releases.

B) To TH and NW: There's no need to bash difference of opinions on game-design elements such as whether or not to have an OOC chat channel in-or-out of client. It's obvious that the players who frequent RPIs tend to like this approach to design, for whatever the reason may be. I can accept that it's a clear distinction from your style of RP-Game and mine.

C) To Everyone: Chill out a bit, okay? Do folks not realize that most players/admins from both genres of RP-MUDs see each other in -exactly- the same way? RPI players are less outspoken on these forums, generally, but they still feel the same way. Personally, making blanket statements about another genre of players/admins for either side is just a complete let-down; I respect logic and reason. That's all that I can say about that.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Perhaps you are right. NWA has only been around this century (2000+) and did a playerwipe 2 years ago which was quite massive. So it is true we aren't really in the same starting point as some of the games that began in the big era of MUDS. How cool is it though to say your game has been around since last century.

I never thought of it that way!

Hopefully, you didn't take what I said as some sort of "your opinion doesn't matter here" just because your game is newer. I was just thinking it may be why you had not encountered as much of the whole "real life just gets in the way" thing yet though I'm sure that you've seen some already.

Games like NWA, Atonement RPI, and Maiden Desmodus show me on a daily basis that the mudding world isn't dying and that new games can have great success. It gives me hope that any new games we come up with will be worth making because there are players still looking for good games and fun worlds.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Parhelion Let us agree to disagree. Your position is that games must have an in-game chat channel to have a positive effect, and mine is that they are not necessary and often are not wanted in games that specifically target the kind of audience that this thread was originally made to talk about ("elitist" RPIers). Your games do not attract this particular type of player, and from what I understand, it was never meant to.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but I want to clarify my position since the way you are perceiving it is incorrect. My point is that every single MUD effectively does have OOC chat channels whether they want to admit it or not. The various forms of IM are too pervasive now.

Given the above fact, my *OPINION* is that having them in game serves as a pressure valve to partially address the need while keeping it under some degree of enforcement/reasonableness. It also helps keep people immersed in the game since they aren't tabbing out and getting so distracted by their out-of-client chatter that they completely miss what is going on IC.

People who choose to design, make, or play muds without them are not making a dumb, bad, or inferior choice.

Originally Posted by Parhelion However, this thread was started to discuss "veterans of roleplay intensive MUDs." Last time I checked, that meant RPIs. So the scope of this topic has been narrowed.

Not so fast, my friend!

Laying absolute claim to the acronym RPI is already a hotly contested debate. But you certainly can't also lay claim to the phrase "roleplay intensive" for Armageddon Style MUDs.