[Seraphina]

As I understand purist roleplaying philosophy nothing outside of the game world itself is supposed to affect the characters in the game. The game doesn't exist to them, it is a real world. This principle is at the root of objections to people being able to alter the condition of their character through real life money.

You justify giving builders in game benefits in exchange for the time they spend working on the mud instead of playing the mud. That seems fair to me, but it does contravene the principle of having to earn in game benefits in game. Even though they are working on the mud, not flipping burgars, it is still OOC work for IC benefits.

Money is just an extra step in bartering. Instead of my trading buttons for a pot, I sell my buttons to someone who wants them, then use the money to buy a pot.

That you don't give builders money, and accept money in exchange for in game benefits, doesn't change the fact that you are exchanging in game benefits for labor.

I am sure you "pay" them far less than minimum wage and that it is more of a token thank you than anything resembling being paid for their time but the principle is still breached.

The entire basis of our economic system was to facilitate exactly what you are doing, trading one thing for another.

I do agree that commercial muds should be very upfront about what payment structure they offer. I am very agravated by all commercial companies that make it difficult for me to find out how much they charge and for what. So much so that if the competition offers a similar product, even if they charge a bit more, I go to the competition on principle.

[KaVir]

Mr X wasn't working on the mud, he was working on the website. The website exists outside of the mud, for the purpose of promoting the mud. Both Mr X and Mr Y put 10 hours of effort into something which helped promote the mud, and both of them received a reward for it. What you appear to disagree with is the fact that Mr Y used a middle-man (money) in the bartering system, while Mr X created the thing he bartered with.

If you were alive 10 thousand years ago, you would be the person saying "Sorry Mr Y, but you didn't bake that bread yourself - you traded for it. If you want to trade bread for this this basket I weaved, you'll have to bake the bread yourself". Some people are not very good at baking, so they do something they ARE good at, and then trade for it (usually through the newer invention of money). This is good, as it allows us to create a commodity that everyone wants, and thus prevents discrimination against (for example) someone who knows how to flip burgers, but doesn't know how to design nifty mud websites.

Your scenario does not address the matter at hand. The concept of a 100m race is to see who can run 100m the fastest. If you reduce the length of the race, then it is no longer a 100m race. If the concept of your mud is that people should compete purely based on time and effort put into playing the mud, then it would be equally inappropriate for you to give bonuses for time/effort put into something else (eg, giving people quest tokens for writing areas). Conversely, if the concept of your mud is that people should compete based purely on the amount of money they put into the mud, then it would be inappropriate for them to gain any bonuses through playing - they should have to purchase every advantage gained. However these are specific cases, and do not apply to the concept of mudding as a whole, which can (and usually does) consist of something in between the two extremes.

The appropriate question to ask is, should you be able to purchase better running shoes than the other runners, simply because you have the money to do so? Should you be able to purchase expensive training equipment, even though other runners cannot affort it? Should you be able to hire a personal trainer, even though nobody else is able to?

[Reason]

Should you be able to use a bicycle if you aren't able to run as fast?

[KaVir]

The concept of the 100 metre race is that you run 100 metres on foot.

If you have lots of time, you can get yourself into better shape by dedicating that time to extra training.

If you have lots of money, you can get yourself into better shape by hiring a good trainer or purchasing good quality fitness-training equipment.

However once you start the race, it's still your skill being matched against that of your opponents, even if each of you earned those skills through different means.


The concept of a combat-oriented mud is that you go around killing monsters and other players.

If you have lots of time, you can get your character into better shape by dedicating to extra "training" for your character.

If you have lots of money, and the mud allows it, you can get your character into better shape by purchasing stat training.

However once you start the game, it's still your skill being matched against that of your opponents, even if each of you earned those skills through different means.

[Reason]

The concept of a 100 metre race is that you run 100 metres on foot, and the concept of building a powerful character is that you work on the needed skills until you have the power.

I don't see any difference between skipping over the difficult training to go directly to having the powerful character and skipping over the race course to be put closer to the finish line.

I don't see any problem with allowing the sale of equipment, roleplay items or some kind of status symbol if extra money is needed, but I think that buying stats and experience is as close to cheating as you can get.  Of course if the rules of the race are that you can pay someone to give you a ride then it's no longer cheating, so I guess it's really up to the admins how they want to do it.

[KaVir]

That's because you're looking at character development as being the race, and "a powerful character" as being the finishing line. I'm looking at character development as being the pre-race training, and having "a powerful character" as being the starting line. The latter is more appropriate to a competitive mud such as a PK mud, because you'll only start competing with other players (ie "racing against them") once you've got your character to the appropriate point of training/development. You don't start running a race until you're in shape, after all.

Curious, as I feel the opposite. Purchasing stats and experience outright is bad, I agree, but allowing people to pay to develop faster (as per my original example) means that they still have to put in time and effort into playing the mud and earning power. Allowing people to purchase equipment, however, is the equivilent of letting them purchase a bicycle in the 100m race (unless the equipment is something they could also earn). You're not accelerating their training - you're giving them something.

[Dulan]

KaVir....by definition, allowing people to purchase stats and experience is allowing them to develop more quickly. And by purchasing super-powerful equipment, it allows them to develop more quickly.

I hate to say it, bud, but I don't think you've got a firm argument/firm idea of what you are arguing this time around - you've got a few weaknesses in several of your statements that I've only seen from you one or two times in the years I've been reading your posts.

-D

[Sylvado]

Not all MU*'s put the effectiveness into the equipment. The equipment can enhance the skill and be configured such that the enhancement requires a certain skill level to be effective.

[KaVir]

Yes it is, and I'm not disputing that.  What I'm saying is that money and time are both commodities which different people have in differing amounts.  Most muds favour those with lots of time, but I don't see what is "unfair" about those which allow you to compensate for a lack of time by using money.  To go back to the example I gave previously:

Imagine a system whereby the mud stores how many hours you've played (and how much exp you've earned) at the end of each week.  Assuming you have played at least 5 hours in the previous week, you are able to "purchase" additional hours at the rate of 1 mud credit per hour, up to a maximum of 20 - and each such hour purchased grants you the average exp earned over the time you have played.  Alternatively, perhaps the credit allows you to earn double exp for one hour in the current week.

Now imagine that those mud credits could be either purchased, or earned through making contributions to the mud.  If you played 20+ hours per week, you'd be no worse off than someone who had lots of money - and if you played less than 5 hours per week, you wouldn't be able to spend any credits anyway.  The result is that you could compete with the more "serious" players, even if you weren't able to play as often as them - and the mud would be improved in the process.

I dislike the idea of selling "super items" that are better than anything you can earn.  I dislike the idea of being able to "buy" a super character without putting in any time or effort.  But (assuming no license violations occur) I am not against the idea of allowing people who don't have much time using other means (such as money, writing articles, providing help files, creating areas, etc) to make up for that - particularly when all such contributions go towards improving the mud.

I am firmly against rich morons who purchase super characters yet have no clue to play.  However I am also against lazy unemployed morons who nobody can compete with, simply because they are able to play all day.

[Dulan]

Unfortunately, I can't respond to that, KaVir.

If I did, it'd quickly degenerate into a flame.

However, I can say this much without risking a flame: You are saying that buying a super-character is okay. But only if it fulfills certain conditions.

Isn't that contradictory to what you claim to be saying?

-D

[KaVir]

I'm not quite sure how you managed to come to that conclusion, after I just specifically said "I am firmly against rich morons who purchase super characters yet have no clue to play".

My opinion is this:

1. You should HAVE to put in time and effort in order to advance within the mud.

2. Money should NEVER be able to get you something that time and effort cannot.

3. As long as it doesn't violate any licenses, and as long as you are up-front about it, there is nothing wrong with allowing people to make up for lost playing hours through making contributions to the mud.

4. A "contribution" is something which helps the mud, or can be used to help the mud, and (as well as money) includes such things as writing help files, building areas, reporting bugs, running quests, writing articles, providing advertising, etc.

5. Different people are good at different things. If one person is a skilled builder then they can write you an area - but a bartering system like that is hardly fair on those who cannot build, and is why money was invented in the first place.

[Nevynral]

Guess it's just a matter of opinion, but to me using out of game resources (like money) to enhance your position in a MUD isn't much different than using out of game resources (like a computer) to enhance your rating in an online chess club or something. There are folks willing to engage in such activities, but what's the point?

I can see why a game may wish to sell advantages to it's players... they could probably use the money. But what I don't really understand is why the player would ever want to buy them. So your purchased data string has bigger numbers than the other player's data strings ... so what? I find it very difficult to understand what satisfaction folks can get from engaging in such practices.

[Dulan]

Based on your third point, KaVir, and to a lesser extent, your first and second points, I take it that you are against Achaea's.....shady business practices, then?

-D

[Molly]

Well, you see, Seraphina, my mud isn't Roleplay enforced, even though some of our players roleplay by their own choice, so IC or OOC matters don't really count much here. My mud is mainly what is known as a hack'n'slash mud, although we try to promote the good and 'smart' players rather than the 'power-players'.

With the exception of some strictly 100% RP muds, where you roleplay out even a fight by using emotes, most muds have some sort of system for advancing, and most players have as their main goal to improve their char and make it as powerful as possible. This is done by gaining different skills, but usually also by getting armour and weapons that improve your stats. A fully trained, fully equipped top level player is usually hundreds of times more powerful than the naked and inexperienced newbie.

In most muds you advance by killing stuff, either other players, or 'monsters', or both. For this you gain exp points and/or levels, which give you more power. Some muds have disposed of the exp and levels and work solely with skills, others have disposed of the equipment with additional stats, but the time element is mostly an important factor in any case, because the skills take time to learn. Most muds by definition are somewhat repetitive.

So in most muds the main ways of getting powerful are:
- by spending a lot of time, repeatedly killing monsters
- or by spending a lot of time repeatedly practizing your skills (and in the extreme cases players use scripts or 'bots' to do both these things, while being AFK themselves, which is why many muds expressively forbid the use of 'bots' ).

In some muds (like mine) you can also advance by using different trades (farming, gardening, lumberjacking, mining, forging etc.) or by doing Quests (= solving more or less difficult problems/puzzles. Simply put, you get rewarded for RESCUING the prisoner in the dungeon, instead of killing him).

There are of course ways of speeding the advancing process up, for instance:

1.  by gradually getting the best possible equipment and/or weapon for your level, to allow you to attack stronger mobs/players thus making the killing easier and quicker (the basic, traditional way)
2. by simply being a 'good player' (meaning that you know your way around the mud, where the best equipment can be found, where your limits are at each stage to avoid unnecessary dying, what facilities to use (for instance mounts, vehicles, pets), which mobs to attack and your chances of succeeding in each case, what things to look for when looking for hidden exits or other secrets in a zone etc.)
3. by cooperating with other players and forming groups for each task (requires 'social' certain skills, at least up to a point)
4. by BUYING the good stuff for mud money/currency (still requires time spent on getting together the mud money)
5. by getting some other, more powerful player to 'tank' for you or give you some good stuff for free (generally known as power-levelling) - (this still needs some social or roleplaying skills, because most experienced players detest newbies that demand to be powerlevelled or given equip)
6. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from another player (cheesy, but it occurs)
7. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from the Mud owner (the subject of this particular discussion)
8. by cheating (for instance by abusing bugs or getting some unscrupolous imm friend of yours to load you some excessively good stuff, or even create it specially for you)

Of these 8 methods, the first three in my opinion are good and recommendable, number 4 is a bit dubious, but still acceptable, after that they get increasingly cheesy.

I think it should be pretty obvious to most, that being able to buy the 'extra' stuff for RL life money gives you a vast - and in my opinion unfair - advantage over the players that haven't the same economical means, or just regard the game in the traditional way, as a skill game, where your skills as a player is what matters, not the size of your wallet. Some P2P muds even take this to the extreme. There are muds where you cannot even learn certain skills, cannot use simple commands like 'rest' or 'sleep' to regain movement, mana and hp points faster, or cannot join certain guilds with access to particularly good equipment, without paying real money to the mud owner.

Sure, you can argue, like KaVir does, that it's 'unfair' that the college student or unemployed person 'without a real life' can spend a lot more time into the mud than the person with a full time job, improving his char in different ways, and getting powerful. But that is the nature of a mud as well as most on-line games, the time spent does - and SHOULD - count, and if you don't like that fact, perhaps you simply should choose another pastime.

I just don't think that buying the advantages for RL money is a good solution, and nothing anybody says will convince me otherwise. It seems from the way this discussion has gone, that I won't be able to convince KaVir otherwise either, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's obvious that several players think like him (regrettably many of these are bad/lazy players, but what the hell, 1000 bluebottle flies cannot be wrong...). It's also obvious that he has Mihaily in his corner, which is kinda amusing, in a way...

I've had my say in this, so I'll end the discussion here from my side, since I think little can be gained by repeating the same arguments or offering more examples.

Finally, to return to our Builders, we do reward them for the time spent on building, and I believe most muds do the same, in one way or another. But what we use to reward them is 'mud currency', not fancy equipment or extra skills or commands. The currency can be used to buy some things, mainly roleplay related, but also things like crash-proof houses, if you get enough of it together. But the Builder, even with his currency, still has to put some time and effort into the game to advance his char, find the good equipment and become powerful. (Mainly this isn't a big problem, because most players make a choice; if they are really into building they generally dump their mortal char, because there simply isn't time enough to do both. Building is a very time-consuming job).

[KaVir]

Well, supposing you've got a player who is really creative. However instead of spending 50 hours playing the mud, they spend half of that time writing a really fanatastic area for your mud. Great! Now your mud has grown. Unfortunately they realise that they're falling behind the other players who are spending all their time playing, so they don't write anything else for your mud.

However, supposing that you gave them something as a thanks - something which would have taken them around 25 hours to have earned on their own (or perhaps even a little longer) - and stick their name in the credits. They're not really any (or much) better off than they would have been if they'd put that time into the mud - but now they're more likely to build some more areas for you, because they don't feel they are losing out. Other players might see this and decide to do the same. The result is that your mud develops a lot faster, because the players are helping out (rather than just playing).

Dulan, I'm not quite sure what Achaea's payment system is, but I certainly disagree with their advertising strategy, and think they should be listed as at least "optional pay-to-play" (or something similar) on the listings here.

[KaVir]

I've never said that time and effort shouldn't count. What I've said is that it doesn't have to be the only factor. Someone who works full time can never compete with an unemployed person who spends all of their time on the mud. I think that as long you put some time and effort into the mud, there is nothing wrong with argumenting your development in return for things which help the mud.

Then you believe the same as me. The only difference between our views is that you think mud owners should use a bartering system and only exchange in-game benefits in return for something that the player has personally made specifically for the mud. My view differs in that I think any trade which is of value to the mud should be worth consideration. I consider that "fairer" than your system, which discriminates against those who are not capable builders. It would be a bit like a baker who refused to sell his bread - instead he would only exchange it for fish which the other person had caught themself.

[Seraphina]

Wow. What is wrong with designing a variety of muds with set-ups that appeal to different types of players? "Choose another pastime" implies that no set up other than the kind you approve of should exist.

I recently read a comment from someone who played a tabletop where everyone agreed to start their characters at level 10 or the equivalent because they were bored playing weak characters.

I know of people who have traded characters of equal strength with one another. From a roleplaying perspective that is awful but from a gaming perspective I can see why people might decide to do that.

I think awarding experience for roleplaying is a great idea but some people think it is awful because it is so subjective and why should people gain experience if they haven't worked the skill?

My point is that there is no option that is automatically unethical in some way. It depends on the set-up of the particular game. Different strokes for different folks.

[GenmaC]

...

I play Achaea when I play MUDs nowdays (which is rare, since I have other things to do most of the time), and I've yet to pay for anything, and most of the people I'm familiar with on Achaea don't feel particularly pressured to pay either.

As the owner of one free MUD, and imm on another, I also am against adding a little $ sign.

I like the "cheesy tricks" bit - I guess allowing you to play for free is a "cheesy trick."

[Dulan]

Ah, yes.

GenmaC, your credibility is...shaky at best on these boards, from certain postings of yours prior to this.

Shoo, shoo, go along back to your free MUDs and such.

Why?

You've managed to ignore this entire thread in your post. Achaea is merely the catalyst of this movement. It's been waiting to happen, and the subject came up several times as far back as with Eternal City's P2Pishness.

Achaea has only served to fuel the need for either a seperate listing for P2P MUDs and free MUDs, or to give the P2P MUDs a definite 'moniker', vs the Free MUDs.

And, the MUD community is hardly ready to give Achaea the benefit of the doubt about not being a P2P. Not with the stuff they've pulled with their advertisements - RPGplanet.net ring a bell? A post on the forums? Somehow meaning something? And let's not bring up the other advertisement quotes.

-D

[GenmaC]

No, I've just noticed that whenever the subject of p2p comes up, certain worthless individuals use it to bash Achaea for their own reasons - probably just jealousy, but it's still worth pointing out.

I've already responded here or elsewhere with my opinion on the $ in the listing. Just thought I'd point out blatant bashing without a reason.

Pretending that I have no credibility seriously damages yours, but I doubt you had a whole lot to start with.