[Milawe]

Just to be clear, I don't think that most of us are fighting against RPI being used by RPI advocates as they see fit. (At least I'm not. I'm pretty sure I used the term correctly and participated in the discussion to actually give it a more specific definition a couple of years ago.) There's simply a good bit of people who simply don't know what it means or what it stands for, and harshing on those people doesn't do anyone a bit of good.

By now, though, I'm sure all the regular participants of TMS do know what it is.

[Newworlds]

In the light of fairness and keeping a thread from being derailed, I bring the following post from Jazuela over to this thread. The proper thread for spotlighting the inconsistancies in the RPI group. For some background, this comes from the thread where a player is trying to find a new MUD to play. He tries out Armeggedon but can't figure out some of the commands (not suprisingly):
Excuse me? Armeggedon has OOC right in the game? Some green haired man is talking in ooc right in a tavern in front of the whole intensive roleplay. I boggle at this. Someone explain to me how this keeps the sanctity of roleplay in tact.

Next we have an example of how SOI handles OOC:
An ooc gnome shows up to help people in Game? No offense Jazuela, but I seem to remember you ripping on RPE games that had ooc "channels". Okay, sorry, but it is much better to have a tunable ooc channel where you never come out of ic no matter what than an ooc gnome popping into the game and completely destroying the environment.

Just another example of why RPI is a term that defined as a single category of games. Unless, RPI denotes any game where you can break into ooc anytime you want, which would mean that all RPI's are not RPE's because we do not allow such breaking of character in the game environment.

[DonathinFrye]

I think that you misunderstood what Jazuela was suggesting on the other thread.

Both ARM and SOI have an "ooc" command that may be used by newbs if they are overwhelmingly lost, need help and there is no administration to immediately provide them with answers online. However, both games strictly prohibit the use of that command for any other reason but the need for emergency help.

As far as the "gnomes" thing goes ... I'm not so sure where that idea came from, but it actually isn't true. There is a "Guest Lounge" on SOI that players can log into as a randomized avatar. It is seperate from the rest of the game world, and there, they can ask other players in the Guest Lounge questions, or freely petition for administrative aid.

There are no global OOC chat channels. Hopefully that clears up how ARM and SOI help players via OOC communication client-side.

[Newworlds]

I'm not sure you are right there. From the example, the new player and the old player both use the command and it surely wasn't an emergency and it sounded like this is utilized frequently and with ease. In fact, we have noticed players (who come from those games) on NWA trying to utilize that type of command and even asking if there are "OOC says" in our game. So naturally I am confused as to this type of usage.

[prof1515]

It's likely that those players you're referring to are not RPI players but rather players who have played games incorrectly calling themselves RPI (they might have tried out the RPIs as well but their impression of what is acceptable would appear to be derived from non-RPI MUDs). That's one of the problems with the abuse of the term: players who don't understand or adhere to the policies of RPI MUDs coming in with misconceptions based on the policies of non-RPI games which incorrectly describe themselves as RPI.

Arm, SoI, Harshlands and the other RPIs have strict policies against abuse of OOC. The ooc command is there only for those rare occassions when something needs to be communicated which is of an ooc nature. Players who overuse it have and will be punished (I recall having to tell a newbie once or twice not to overuse the command back when I admin'd on SoI).

Here's SoI's help file on the command:

Note that for a time the OOC Lounge was even closed due to players violating the IC/OOC barrier. This is not allowed in RPIs and I can recall banning a player or two for doing so back in 2004.

[Delerak]

From Arm's help file.


I rarely see people use it in taverns. Only if something like a bug occurs. In private places like apartments and clan compounds it is more prevalent.

[Delerak]

Expanding on Prof's post. I've seen players get both ooc and their wish (petition) commands revoked if they abuse it.

[Mabus]

We put an "owhisper" command in a couple years back, for when such things are needed.
There are times when these is no other way to relay information, or ask questions, in a game. Such commands allow players to remain in character.

Of course, we are more of a "role-play expected" (not to be confused with a "role-play encouraged") game.

[Anitra]

As a total outsider, I am quite impressed by the Armageddon log. It's a nice piece of roleplay.
However, one small detail in it disturbs me so much that it actually in a way destroys the experience:

It's a minor detail, but it's really irritating, especially as it gets repeated.
If everything else has been coded so nicely to fit the roleplaying mode, why on earth hasn't this been fixed long ago?

That said, allow me as a total outsider to also say that I am getting extremely tired of these endless threads about what honestly seems to be a non-issue.
You guys should get a room.

[Jazuela]

It is fixed. The person chose not to use it, because he didn't care about how he'd see it. There's me, and all its fineries: !me, #me, %me, ^me, etc. etc. to place the enactor in various parts of the sentence. So if you did

say (^me voice hoarse) How about the other way around, sharp-ear?
it'd come out

Your voice hoarse, you ask, in allundean...

and the elf would see:

His voice hoarse, the human asks, in allundean:

From what I've heard, most people don't bother with the first-person viewing and don't really mind about the grammatical faux pas it creates. The only person who sees it "wrong" is the person typing it, and they know what they're trying to say. Considering that most muds don't even have any emoting system at all, and rely only on socials, it's a pretty big jump from mediocrity.

[Delerak]

I didn't even know what they were talking about. I never cared what I see. As long as it looks right for everybody else, I know what I'm emoting and saying. I always use "his" for myself.

[KaVir]

Erm what? I can't actually think of any mud that doesn't have emoting. Even my pure PK "16K mud competition" entry had an emote command.

[Jazuela]

Emphasis on the word "systems," KaVir. I realize most muds have an "act" or "emote" command. But most don't have emoting systems. Many don't even have "sayto" or "tell" (the RP-tell, not the global channel tell), and instead, when your character talks, he's not talking to anyone in particular. He's just talking, out loud. Some games have actual systems developed around emoting, such as RPIs, and a couple of MOOs I know of (among others). Some are more dynamic than others, but they're whole entire systems, rather than simply

emote waves to you.

Sue waves to you.

You wonder if Sue is waving to you, or that other guy who just walked in the room, since there's no way to tell.

Sue corrects herself and waves to Joe.

Joe wonders why he's seeing Sue wave to him, as if he was someone else named Joe. Or, if perhaps, there -is- someone else in the room named Joe, and Sue is waving to -that- Joe, and not him.

Sue gives up, and just waves, because the game her character is in, doesn't have an emoting system, merely an emote command.

[Delerak]

Most MUDs have ****ty emote systems, not allowing you to tell your story the way you want.

[KaVir]

I didn't see that word in your post. What I was referring to was the claim that "most muds don't even have any emoting system at all, and rely only on socials". Clearly that's not the case.

Yeah, the typical emote system is pretty basic.

[Vanth]

No.

Yes.

If the term (and the ability to find games that meet one's search criteria) becomes debased, that's more of a problem for the TMS admins than for us, as if their site becomes useless, it won't get used, and ad revenues will taper off.

And besides, why would one individual admin (like myself) be expected to speak for all RPI admins? I'm sure our ideas of what defines RPI are all different (however subtly). I don't feel the need to defend the term because I don't feel that Armageddon is threatened by the existence of other games labeled RPI.

[DonathinFrye]

RPI, in my mind, refers to Armageddon, which inspired Harshlands and those folks who created the RPI Engine. I always repeat this argument, because it's the one that makes the most sense to me - and I've not really seen it refuted. Like SMAUG, or CIRCLE, or any other engine that was built off of DIKU, RPI is a codebase. To me, an RPI MUD would be the game that inspired the codebase (ARM), the MUDs that use that codebase (Atonement, Harshlands, Black Sands and Shadows of Isildur currently) - and any MUDs that build their feature set in meaningful emulation of the RPI Engine.

Arguing semantics and the list of qualifications necessary to brand yourself RPI seems like an impossible, circular debate. If you want to call your MUD an RPI, when it doesn't resemble what RPI players think of when they use the phrase, that's your call. I don't think that it's a very good choice. Why?

It's a codebase. People recognize the codebase. It could potentially be disappointing or confusing to the people who are familiar with the RPI Engine.

[Newworlds]

Must be another Full Moon out with the regurgitation of this thread. Give me a break people, RPI Engine now? Since when is a modification of DIKU code now a new engine? At least God Wars really created ground up new Engine that is utilized in several games. Please don't call it a MUD Engine if it is really modified Diku. That would be akin to claiming that only a Modified Diku Mud with Intensive roleplay could be called RPI. Who would do that?

[DonathinFrye]

Do you call ROM a codebase? SMAUG? CIRCLE? TMS and TMC recognize them as such, and they all originated from DIKU. If someone advertises their game as a SMAUG MUD, doesn't that have immediate connotations to you? Of course it does. It's the exact same for the RPI Engine - and yes, that is exactly what it is called.

[Newworlds]

To be honest if someone says ROM I think of Read Only Memory.