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Old 12-13-2005, 02:24 AM   #61
the_logos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aardwolf @ Dec. 12 2005,21:24)
Quote:
Originally Posted by

I'd imagine that Synozeer depends 100% on MUDs policing each other. Aardwolf has a lot of players, so we've never seen a reason to investigate their high vote counts, but we do investigate, as thoroughly as we can, any sudden jumps in voting or suspiciously high vote-total to total players ratio.

So I mean, the answer to your question is probably just, "Nobody complained." (Until now.)

Incidentally, I'm proposing to Adam that he consider changing the rule to allow for vote reminding systems that allow players to opt-out if they want. That way Aardwolf could just keep their current system (which seems perfectly fine to me as long as the rules permit it) and you could modify yours to allow players to opt-out of the vote-status-on-prompt.

I think that the reason for the rules is that Adam doesn't wish players to be selectively nagged based on whether they've voted or not. Currently the options are then either to nag everybody or not to nag. If the rule change were permitted, there'd be a third option, "Only 'nag' those who are ok with being 'nagged.'"

--matt
Matt, I've always supported you and your muds, I'm very disappointed you didn't just email and ASK me before posting several notes about Aardwolf "cheating".

Firstly, the Aardwolf command is a reminder, a 12 hour timer, nothing more nothing less. It is not tracked and there is no in-game consequence implied or otherwise to voting or not voting. Secondly, and most importantly, I also asked Adam before adding it and was told it was ok as long as it was simply that, a timer.

I guess you could type 'ivoted' and not vote, but there would be absolutely no point to it unless you believed for some reason it really did affect your character. If someone has that little trust in what is published by the game's admin I would have to wonder why they'd play the mud in the first place.

What I'm struggling to understand now is how you don't see Medieva's implied threat as breaking the rules. Isn't an implied threat for not voting basically an in-game incentive to vote?!
Hiya,

Well, as I said, I don't personally have any problem with what you guys are doing, though as per the rules before Adam's change, you weren't allowed to display different messages based on whether someone has voted or not. I didn't at all suggest what you were doing was against the spirit of the rules, but it did seem to be against the wording of the rules.

I don't care, myself, about what the idea of threatening players to vote because frankly, any admin who carried that threat out wouldn't have any players left. The situation would thus correct itself.

You can disagree with someone without losing support for them. I have nothing but props for Aardwolf generally.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:26 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aardwolf @ Dec. 12 2005,21:27)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 12 2005,18<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]So, if Aardwolf's is on by default, Adam says it's illegal, but if people have to opt-in to it then he says it's fine. Medievia's sounds like it is still against his intent though, as it seems like it's forced on players.

Having read further on to this, I'll be looking forward to your public apology.
And you have it! As I said earlier, I misinterpreted what you and Aardwolf were actually doing.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:33 AM   #63
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Synozeer @ Dec. 12 2005,22:42)
. You also cannot have a system that "nags" a player about voting (regardless of whether they voted or not) unless it is totally voluntary with no positive or negative effects for a player choosing to use or not use such a system, and it must allow the player to easily opt out of it at any time, also with no positive or negative effect.
So.. basically.. Medievia is still within its rights here - there is no positive nor negative effect.. the only negative effect revolves around using a script to remove the prompt - simply because it is illegal to use scripts to control your character in general - has nothing to do with voting.. And it's pretty easy to opt out when all you have to do is type two words - wow that's mindblowing, eh?!

Vryce cannot tell who votes for sure and who doesn't - even Soleil stated this on IMM last night - so what does your new rule do? Nothing really but no complaints here. I look forward to seeing all the new faces who will check us out simply 'cause we are getting bitched at again over nothing!
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:34 AM   #64
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Test. I just made two posts to this thread, and neither showed up, though on the front page, the last post by me in this thread currently shows as by me. Hrm.

Edit: Argh. NOW it decides to show me my last two posts.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:58 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Syltheana @ Dec. 13 2005,03:33)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Synozeer @ Dec. 12 2005,22:42)
. You also cannot have a system that "nags" a player about voting (regardless of whether they voted or not) unless it is totally voluntary with no positive or negative effects for a player choosing to use or not use such a system, and it must allow the player to easily opt out of it at any time, also with no positive or negative effect.
So.. basically.. Medievia is still within its rights here - there is no positive nor negative effect.. the only negative effect revolves around using a script to remove the prompt - simply because it is illegal to use scripts to control your character in general - has nothing to do with voting.. And it's pretty easy to opt out when all you have to do is type two words - wow that's mindblowing, eh?!

Vryce cannot tell who votes for sure and who doesn't - even Soleil stated this on IMM last night - so what does your new rule do? Nothing really but no complaints here. I look forward to seeing all the new faces who will check us out simply 'cause we are getting bitched at again over nothing!
Incorrect. The part about the mud being required to allow the player to opt-out at any time...

Medeivia doesn't have an "off" toggle on their vote thing. They have only a "pause" toggle. So yeah you can type in the command when the game reminds you to vote, but 13 hours later it'll remind you again. And again 13 hours later, and the next 13 hours, etc. etc. The player has no ability to tell the mud to STOP reminding them, period.

This is now defined as against the rules.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:06 AM   #66
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Just to clarify a few things... because Synozeer modified the rules a bit, we modified Medievia's system a bit.  

We now have an opt-out option.  Players can simply type vote idonotvote and the prompt will go away.  The "threatening" paragraph was also removed from the help file.  

I would think that now Medievia is well within the spirit of the rules of this site.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:07 AM   #67
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The rules concerning this have been cleared up a bit, which now read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
You cannot have a system that ‘nags’ a player about voting in response to whether they’ve voted or not unless participation in the system is totally voluntary with no tangible positive or negative effects for a player choosing to use or not use such a system, . Such a system must also allow a player to easily opt out of it at any time, also with no positive or negative effect, and it must be off by default.”
What this results in is that is:

- Allows global messages (a shout from an admin, or whatever).

- Prohibits systems that force players to see vote messages that are dependent on whether they’ve voted.

- Allows the sort of system that Aardwolf employs, which is a completely voluntary system.

Thanks to Matt for the wording and input.

Adam



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Old 12-13-2005, 08:10 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
We now have an opt-out option. Players can simply type vote idonotvote and the prompt will go away. The "threatening" paragraph was also removed from the help file.

I would think that now Medievia is well within the spirit of the rules of this site.
So as long as this system is off by default, then it should be perfectly fine.

Adam
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:17 AM   #69
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I wanna say just two things now:

1) Adam/Synozeer is super-cool for clarifying the rule and adding the clarification to the stated policy so quickly.

2) I don't like Medievia, it isn't a game I would play even if they got their start ethically. HOWEVER...Soleil is to be commended for changing her game's voting system promptly to accommodate Adam's clarification.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:30 AM   #70
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Wow I was reading through this drama..

Players:"This Medievia is breaking the rules!"
Medievia:"Oh thanks! Free attention for us, lovely! Aardwolf cheats too. BTW, check out this WEBCAM of Vryce's wife! LOL she's bigger and complex than other mud wives"
Logos: "Hmm. Technically this isn't illegal.. but if I could have things my way, this would be. The WEBCAM, of course. But on the other hand if they want to scare off players its their business."
Aardwolf: "We're opt-in only non-pestering reminders or some #### like that! Its fine really! Our players support this."
Players: (cheerleads)
Synozeer: "I made the rules different so now it is illegal unless its opt-in."
Everyone: "ERK"
Synozeer: "OK there, Logos dumbed it down for you."
Everyone: "Lets hear it for clear rules and clean games, YAY!"

Oh the hilarity. All jokes aside, I don't want to pee on anyone's parade here but I'd like to point out that the voting site wouldn't NEED extra rule addendums/changes if it didn't have muds trolling the list to begin with. So I'm going to post something constructive in the hope that it will do some good here:

Medievia you deliberately do a very good job of setting everyone against you, for all your complaining everyone hates you ... I've actually heard you call small muds worthless now. I read that post and I just felt an overwhelming rage wash over me. And thats rational anger. Things like this is only solidfying people's allegiance against you - you're making the enemy bigger. Maybe its fun for you and the people who like fighting you back but this isn't productive for our community (which is how Synozeer justified Medievia being re-instated in the list, so something you need to pay attention to). Everyone lost here, there were no winners. Its just.... dumb.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:13 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Dec. 13 2005,09:17)
2) I don't like Medievia, it isn't a game I would play even if they got their start ethically. HOWEVER...Soleil is to be commended for changing her game's voting system promptly to accommodate Adam's clarification.
I don't think breaking the rules with nagware, threatening your players if they don't vote, getting caught, and having to make Synozeer spend time revising rules just to make things clear for you... then stopping when the site admin directly tells you to... is praise-worthy behavior.

After Synozeer says "These are the rules of the site.  You need to change your model."... what is the alternative?  Tell him to stick it on the website he's providing for your use?

They did the bare minimum.  Let's not get carried away.  The praiseworthy behavior is being done by the majority of games that don't threaten their players with consequences if they don't come here and vote.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:34 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,19:12)
I've asked this on the imm channel but you didn't answer, so I'll ask it here... If you HATE Medievia so much, why are you loggin  in? Why are you logged in RIGHT NOW, waiting for Vryce's every word on the imm channel?  Do you like the drama?  Do you think all this cutting and pasting is making Medievia look bad?  As I just said on imm, it's all free publicity, bring it on!
Soleil, I used to be the biggest fan of Medievia. I sent in hundreds of dollars to support you. However lately, it seems that the Med Gods could care less what players' opinions are, even callously and publicly disreguarding them in some cases. I have heard of quite a few instances of players getting purged for merely asking too many questions, and while I don't know the whole story, merely the suggestion that this is taking place appals me. I have also noticed an increasing imbalance in the game toward the power clans, and the heros that send in their $300 for a full set of donation eq. I have watched Vryce become horribly pompous and insulting on the immortal channel. And finally, I logged on to see that now, if it is suspected that I am not voting for Medievia every day, there can be negative repercussions in game for me.

Frankly, I do not think I need this much drama, when my real life stresses me out enough as it is. I am seeking an escape from drama in my online gaming choices.

And as to why I still log on? I promised a friend that I would hero a bloodline character for him, and I keep my promises.
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:21 PM   #73
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Test. (Sorry, just trying to figure out why betrayed-by-gods shows as the last poster on the front page, but no such post is to be found in the thread itself.)

Edit: As soon as I posted, betrayed-by-gods post showed up here in the thread itself. Is anyone else having this problem?
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:30 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 13 2005,20:21)
Edit: As soon as I posted, betrayed-by-gods post showed up here in the thread itself. Is anyone else having this problem?
Yes, I had the same problem.

And uh, something ever so slightly on topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
[Mon Dec 12 06:10] Vryce(148):: if we dont STAY in the top 5 on that vote list I will shut down medievia
That's a terribly tempting offer.
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:32 PM   #75
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Honestly, I think the best option to see about enforcing the top list voting rule is to actually have a committee on here that logs in to each game (maybe once a month or so) and looks over their help files or in-game channel chat to see any directed reference for voting here and other sites as well.

Having a set aside committee (i.e. moderators) to do a little extra governing for enforcing the rules should put a quick stop to the violators. It also gives Adam a bit more room and time to focus on other aspects of the site rather than having to govern each game here if they are following the rules or not.

Just my $0.02 worth.

-- Silver
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:40 PM   #76
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Just a point: Cut and paste text logs have, to me at least, zero credibility, given that it's trivial to fake them and there is no way to distinguish between a faked and real log. That's not to say the logs supposedly from Medievia that have been posted here are fake, but it is to say there's no way to ascertain whether they are legitimate or not.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 01:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 13 2005,13:40)
Just a point: Cut and paste text logs have, to me at least, zero credibility, given that it's trivial to fake them and there is no way to distinguish between a faked and real log. That's not to say the logs supposedly from Medievia that have been posted here are fake, but  it is to say there's no way to ascertain whether they are legitimate or not.
This is true, but Soleil/etc. aren't refuting their veracity, so I think it's safe to assume they're actual quotes for now.

Also, the 'classic' faked log isn't usually of a public channel.  When we've had players post fake logs before, it's almost always of a private conversation.  Of course, the staff can generally produce their own system logs which disagree with the posted one, but that's obviously only evidence that the conspiracy reaches the highest levels, with multiple people all lying through their teeth.

If the person wanted to invent a log to discredit Vryce, it would have been a private conversation which ended with something arbitrary and unfair happening to the player's favorite character, including the loss of a sword that took 400 hours of work to obtain, thus ruining his fun.  (Also, Vryce would have transferred the sword to his mortal.  And it all started because the poster killed Vryce's mortal.)

Then again, you run a game, so you know those rules.  My gut is, though, that these quotes are accurate.

Off-topic, regarding the bug:: I've started a thread regarding the vanishing post bug (I see it too) on the "Bugs and Suggestions" forum.  Please direct all further discussion of it there, so Synozeer can check one place instead of picking through several unrelated threads.
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:13 PM   #78
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Testing. Please ignore.
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:22 PM   #79
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Let me assure you all that those quotes are real. I had witnessed them myself along with the rest of the heroes on Medievia who had IMM channel turned on.

Besides, why in the world would we want to fake quotes of this man? With the mud community's opinion of V as a whole, that'd be rather silly and a waste of time. We can't possibly do any further damage than he's done himself already.
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:23 PM   #80
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This flame war is still going on?  I get home from work to 3 more pages!  What's the big deal here?  We implemented something that another game had already implemented, disgruntled Medievia players brought it up here, rules were changed to clarify, we change Medievia's programming to fit the rules, end of story.  Why keep on and on and on and on?  

It's really quite hilarious, and this may sound pompous and all, but we have had triple the amount of new player creations from "Mud Portals" yesterday and today than previously.  Sure, a lot of those creations will be people just logging in to see the hubbub, but ANY player we get from this is one more player we didn't have yesterday.  So, as I said before, continue the thread, you are just sending more and more players our way.
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