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Old 12-13-2005, 04:31 PM   #81
gameover
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Just for TMS's edification: Medievia now allows players to opt out but by default they get the prompt change. Also, when you choose to opt out, your status is changed publically, so any player who uses playerinfo to find out your level/etc will see that you choose to opt out of the spam.

WWW Voting: TURNED OFF
[in red, at the bottom of your profile]

vs.

WWW Voting: On
[in green]

I guess they're hoping to shame people who dislike spam. Maybe it will work. Neat stuff.
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:49 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 13 2005,16:23)
but ANY player we get from this is one more player we didn't have yesterday.
It's also one more player you wont have tomorrow, most likely. Don't flatter yourself.

Instead of trying to insult the flamers by saying that they're giving you free publicity, you might try being a little above their level by not letting them bate you. As you said, the horse is dead and beaten--let it die. The more you reply, the more they'll peck away at you .
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:51 PM   #83
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*sigh* Test.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:40 PM   #84
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You cannot have a system that ‘nags’ a player about voting in response to whether they’ve voted or not unless participation in the system is totally voluntary with no tangible positive or negative effects for a player choosing to use or not use such a system, . Such a system must also allow a player to easily opt out of it at any time, also with no positive or negative effect, and it must be off by default.
If I'm reading this correctly, then I have three points to make about the Medievia situation:

1 - The system is on by default as gameover mentioned, which is against the new clarified rule.
2 - Allowing people to see who turned off the vote reminders could well produce a tangible negative effect in said players being treated differently by other players and possibly Immortals, regardless of the best intentions.
3 - The very command, "idonotvote" is a little insulting. What if I do vote when I feel like it, but don't want to be spammed with messages?

Quick Edit - I also agree with the point made by Davairus about trolling, it doesn't help.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:18 PM   #85
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Arrow

It's nice to see that some things never change.

Mudsites come and go, but the whiners are here to stay.
People play med because it is one of the best muds out there for variety of play and pvp.  Things are nice and simple and easy to figure out unlike many of these so called _new_ muds.  Many people do not wish for roleplaying.  Many people do not wish for muds that have great zones, but a lack of sufficient easy to play gameplay.  Med happens to have both.

Here are some of the things I enjoy about med, and if any other mud in existence has it.  I would be glad to try your game out.  Trading -- Trading is my favorite thing about med.  I can buy a covered wagon, and load it with freight from one of the many tradeposts.  I can then journey the roads within the multimillion room wilderness, protect my freight from roving mobfactions such as lions, wolves and pigs. hopefully making a profit in the process.  Does your game offer that?  I also like Shipping.  I can join a ship, shoot guns to kill serpents or destroy other clanships, kill other mobfactions such as aquoderms or krakens for fae.

I used to be an xper, and I have many heroes to show for that, but because of Vryce and his vision of what a game should be I now enjoy a much wider variety of med.  I may still dislike cpking, but there are many more things about the game I happen to enjoy much more.  Every mud owner has a vision of what his/her game should be.  I just happen to prefer Vryce's vision because so far I have not seen one that compares.

Sincerely,

Tyreblood@medievia.com 4000
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:47 PM   #86
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Ok so, this thread was almost entirely about the new voting prompt and helpfile in Medievia. For a bit it was also about Soleil trying to compare Medievia's new voting thing to Aardwolf's.

And Tyreblood is talking about what Medievia has to offer.

...

What a nice plug. Which is perfectly alright of course. If you believe in it, then you should back it. And I haven't heard one single person deny that Medievia has plenty to do, because it does have a lot to do. But that's a bit off topic don't you think?

I'm a whiner because I've seen and heard too much? Well so be it. I'll wear the title proudly, since it means I'm not naive enough to believe everything I'm told.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:55 PM   #87
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Tyreblood, the Advertising Forum is over there. *points* You seem to be confused.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,19:12)
As I just said on imm, it's all free publicity, bring it on!
I've always thought this was one of the most overused expressions on TopMud.  EVERYONE has said this at some point or other.  Not that there's anything wrong with the reasoning, I'm just saying...  There's not much publicity to really be gotten in this forum.

I love MUD controversy, it's really where TopMud shines.  Otherwise, it get's kind of slow and dull.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:49 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (gameover @ Dec. 13 2005,16:31)
Just for TMS's edification: Medievia now allows players to opt out but by default they get the prompt change.  Also, when you choose to opt out, your status is changed publically, so any player who uses playerinfo to find out your level/etc will see that you choose to opt out of the spam.

WWW Voting: TURNED OFF
[in red, at the bottom of your profile]

vs.

WWW Voting: On
[in green]

I guess they're hoping to shame people who dislike spam.  Maybe it will work.  Neat stuff.
Why people put up with this from a mud they play is beyond me. In the meantime I do not appreciate Medievia saying they implemented the same feature as Aardwolf. Nope, you defaulted it to on and you threatened players that turned it off.

Now you claim to have modified that helpfile, but it really doesn't matter. You posted a helpfile telling players that if they did not vote they would be thought of negatively by the administration, would not be helped if they needed it and would not be considered for "avatar". Now you removed the helpfile not because you had a change of heart but because you were forced to. Your players know this, they know how you feel, they don't need the helpfile to feel pressure to vote .. the fact that it ever existed at all is pressure enough.

Now a question for Synozeer - is it legal to have it publicly (or to certain players) visible whether or not other players have voted / opted in to a voting feature? To me the peer pressure is pressure enough for people to vote, more so than any automated reminder. I know Medievia is not the only mud to do this. Some even track the ip logs from their website and compare those to online players in an attempt to see who actually clicked the vote link. The irony is that one of the holier-than-though posters throwing around "Aardwolf is cheating" crap yesterday has been doing this for years.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:26 PM   #90
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Just a few cents to toss in here, now that the crap has flown for a few hours again...as a sidenote, I am amazed by the petty behaviour from all sides.

First, the modification made to the rules, seems to be serving to JUST FIT what Aardwolf chooses to do. Is it because they did it first? I seriously doubt that it can be that they have a better game, and because if it, I'd like to call on Synozeer to ask him what game(s) HE plays, and perhaps what levels of characters he has on them...not to cry Conspiracy Theory, or anything. Back to the system, it is, regardless of opt-in/opt-out, a canvass of the game. Without any game having a system of this nature, would the votes still break down the way they do? THAT QUESTION has yet to be asked.

Second, as far as the opt-in/opt-out status being shown on a Medievia player's playerinfo? So what! If a player within the game chooses to treat another player differently because of that, that is THEIR option, what PLAYERS choose to do based on ANY flag of another is NOT under this site's jurisdiction. And as far as the Gods go? I'll put it quite simply: GODS HAVE RULES TOO. If they're told not to put any heed to it, they won't. Enough said.

Personally, I feel this is getting ridiculous. People are just slinging #### back at one another over one petty game change. gameover, I seriously believe you have absolutely NO LIFE, for bringing this into a global forum. If you have problems with a game, ANY GAME, it would be reasonable to take it up with those that you have issues with. It doesn't need to be trotted out like this.

As far as what is/is not said, and forging logs of a channel, whomever said that if it were a fake log, it would have included such heartbreaking events as a character being purged, etc..., you are blind. Yes, most fake logs are private logs, because those are a) harder to prove without bringing system-generated logs into the picture, and b) more believable to the controversy-inclined public. But, a few things need to be brought up that, sadly, have not been yet. The time stamped on that first post was Monday, 12-December, at 6:12 AM...this would have been within 10 minutes of a game restart. Not many people are in very quickly after a restart, especially at that time of day. I personally went to bed after that restart. A restart is a break in all progress, and a good stopping point for a few minutes to go get something to eat, run to the bathroom, etc...it does not, therefore, surprise me that there aren't many able to say whether or not that statement was real, or a fabrication. I don't feel that Medievia's staff should have to trot out system logs for you all to see to refute that comment, simply because it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO ANYTHING. It just started the whole controversy, which seems to be what everyone wanted here.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:32 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
You posted a helpfile telling players that if they did not vote they would be thought of negatively by the administration, would not be helped if they needed it and would not be considered for "avatar".
The help file actually said that if the player ran a script to get rid of the prompt that it would mark their history. Having anything negative in your history could always affect decisions made about your character. There are many things that players can do on the game to have their history marked, running scripts included. In no way does it say that if they dont vote they would not get our help.

People read that as a threat, but running scripts is illegal for the most part on Medievia. We changed the text when we added the opted out code last night.

Yes we are being asked to change the system, but as long as we are all on the same playing field with this voting stuff, the better off we all are. Medievia has a large playerbase, it should be reflected here at this site. We have a good game, more of the world should know about it.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:37 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aardwolf @ Dec. 13 2005,20:49)
Now a question for Synozeer - is it legal to have it publicly (or to certain players) visible whether or not other players have voted / opted in to a voting feature? To me the peer pressure is pressure enough for people to vote, more so than any automated reminder. I know Medievia is not the only mud to do this. Some even track the ip logs from their website and compare those to online players in an attempt to see who actually clicked the vote link. The irony is that one of the holier-than-though posters throwing around "Aardwolf is cheating" crap yesterday has been doing this for years.
I'm curious: What MUD was the "holier-than-thou" poster from in which players can see which players have and haven't voted? That would be against TMS rules it seems to me, since it displays a different message based on whether or not you've voted.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:47 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aeternitas @ Dec. 13 2005,21:26)
First, the modification made to the rules, seems to be serving to JUST FIT what Aardwolf chooses to do. Is it because they did it first?  I seriously doubt that it can be that they have a better game, and because if it, I'd like to call on Synozeer to ask him what game(s) HE plays, and perhaps what levels of characters he has on them...not to cry Conspiracy Theory, or anything. Back to the system, it is, regardless of opt-in/opt-out, a canvass of the game.  Without any game having a system of this nature, would the votes still break down the way they do? THAT QUESTION has yet to be asked.
That's nonsense. I essentially wrote the text for the rule change, as Synozeer mentioned, and my biggest mud is often #2 to Aardwolf. What reason would there possibly be for me to write the rule change so as to specifically permit Aardwolf's system just because it's Aardwolf's? If anything, there would be a reason for me to write it to prohibit it.

The rule clarification is as it is because it fits with the spirit that Adam had wanted to enshrine in the rules in the first place. That's it, and that's all. In Aardwolf's case, although the letter of the law seemed to be being violated (though technically wasn't), the system was completely opt-in. It serves merely as a handy way for players who want to vote to keep track of when they want to vote. Medievia's system, as implemented, was not only not opt-in, but you couldn't opt-out. It was not just a handy reminder. It was coercion. Adam clarified the rules because there's no reason something like Aardwolf's system shouldn't be permitted and there's no reason both the spirit AND letter of the rules shouldn't reflect that.

--matt
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:15 PM   #94
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You guys make my brain hurt.

Such complexity about the voting script on here.
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:15 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by (naubol @ Dec. 12 2005,19:34)
 It doesn't matter that it might or might not be inforced, players see the threat and they will feel compelled to go vote.
Actually, I vote because I'm happy to support a game I've been playing since about 98 or 99. I don't really understand why people are getting so upset and heated over it. If you like the game, it takes seconds to cut/paste the URL and click to vote.. If you don't like the game, you shouldn't be seeing the message anyway because I would think you wouldn't bother logging in to something you don't enjoy?

I'm sorry if this is considered "off topic" because I'm not bashing Medievia.. I'm only commenting on the topic of voting. I'm more than happy to do it, its an incredible game. I've recommended it to lots of people and they always stay. I recently brought in 2 more players and I'm working on a couple others. Voting takes far less time than that.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by
Now a question for Synozeer - is it legal to have it publicly (or to certain players) visible whether or not other players have voted / opted in to a voting feature?
No, that would not be legal, as it can act as a reward/punishment in many cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I seriously doubt that it can be that they have a better game, and because if it, I'd like to call on Synozeer to ask him what game(s) HE plays, and perhaps what levels of characters he has on them...not to cry Conspiracy Theory, or anything.
Since you asked, I don't play any muds, and I haven't for a few years. I log into only one mud, Abandoned Realms, once every 1-2 months, just to keep my character from being deleted and to chat every so often. And as you can see, Abandoned Realms gets no special favors on the list.

Now, I'll just clarify a few things:

Voting reminders and the like must be OFF by default and stay OFF unless the player turns it on themselves.

Lists showing who has or has not voted (or uses a voting reminder tool or the like) also violates the rules.

Displaying different messages to other players based on whether you voted/didn't vote or use a voting reminder tool/don't use the tool violates the rules.

ADam
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:17 AM   #97
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So basically you're going to rewrite the rules as Medievia rewrites its code.

Gotcha.
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:09 AM   #98
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As I see it, voting is meant to be something a player does because they think their MUD is excellent. It should be IN NO WAY pressured by the MUD. It shouldn't even need to be suggested by the MUD, other than providing some possible websites at which to vote!

That's the spirit of the rules of this site, as I see it, and if you can't tell that Medievia's system, even as they changed it twice, was breaking the spirit of the rules, then you are blind.

This voting system is not intended to be some kind of free advertisement service. Just because the Medievia staff is frustrated because they sunk their money into a PC Gamer advertising scheme that has failed to net any new players doesn't mean that they should be allowed to abuse a free service put here to allow the PLAYERS to give their opinions to the world.

Incidentally, Soleil failed to mention that "vote idonotvote" will only pause spam for a month, which is worse than an opt-out system, in my opinion. It's not even close to opt-in!
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:36 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Damon @ Dec. 14 2005,02:17)
So basically you're going to rewrite the rules as Medievia rewrites its code.

Gotcha.
Come on man. Out of probably everyone prominent on this site besides Synozeer, I'm one of the only ones to have welcomed Medievia to Topmudsites with open arms, and have gotten myself flamed more than once for supporting them, even if I disagree with some of the things they do.

I'm sorry if you can't understand why this change makes sense, but there is is a consistent rationale behind it that is, I think, pretty obvious, and has nothing to do, per se, with Medievia.

--matt
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Old 12-14-2005, 04:05 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by (gameover @ Dec. 14 2005,03:09)
 It shouldn't even need to be suggested by the MUD
You say it yourself, gameover, the one who started this BS, that the MUD should not even suggest the idea of voting.
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