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Old 02-01-2003, 02:27 PM   #61
Alajha
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Furthermore, who are you to tell other people how to run their muds?
Anyways, if you know a MU* rewards it's players for advertising, or voting, like every single MU* in existence has done and will do, then it's time that most of you learned to act like an adult. This does not mean repeatedly posting threads about the same problem; it means learning from your experience, and more importantly, shutting your #### mouths about it already. Move on; it's such a petty, pathetic topic. Don't downplay the MU*.
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Old 02-01-2003, 02:43 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furthermore, who are you to tell other people how to run their muds?
Synozeer?  He's the person that runs this site.  He can't tell people how to run their mud, but he can certainly refuse to list those who don't follow the TMS guidelines - just as a mud owner can refuse to let people play if they don't follow the rules.

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Anyways, if you know a MU* rewards it's players for advertising, or voting, like every single MU* in existence has done and will do
The words "gross overgeneralisation" spring to mind.  A small handful of muds cheating is not the same as "every single mud in existence" cheating, nor is "they do it, so why can't we" a valid excuse for not following the guidelines.
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Old 02-01-2003, 03:23 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Loremaster @ Feb. 01 2003,02:17)
What  amuses me is that I read so many of Achaea's justifications for their reward system and assumed that its owner's arguments were opinions not contrary to facts.  I admit my chagrin upon actually reading TMS rules and seeing this:

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Can I offer rewards for voting?
You CANNOT offer incentives or rewards to players for voting. That means you cannot give players items, experience, or anything else in return for votes.
It's amusing to see that some people enjoy adding to threads that have taken no interest at all in reading.  You assumed correctly that the owner of Achaea's opinion ( and my own as well) were not contrary to the facts, in that there was no rule you could not give incentives for votes.  I *HAVE* read the thread and nowhere do I see that mud claiming any type of justification after the rule was introduced.

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Apparently, Synozeer has no desire to enforce the rules he has put in place; I understand the tediousness of policing all the muds wishing to advertise here and it is, after all, his site.
Apparently you have some type of information he is not privy to then.  I'm sure he would be quite happy if you were to share it with him.  I'm sure many other forum members would be quite happy to hear about it as well, nothing quite like some good dirt about other muds.
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Old 02-01-2003, 08:12 PM   #64
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Loremaster:

The new rule was put into effect during the middle of this discussion, so views and justifications used earlier on may no longer be in effect. Just wanted to clarify since it seemed you missed that part (I know I often skip a page or two in these particular discussions and can usually pick the thread back up at whatever later point it degenerates to.  In this specific thread, however, something actually changed midway ).


Alajha:
[sarcasm]
You are absolutely correct that every single MU* in existence (whether or not they are even listed here) rewards their players for voting here. Also, you couldn't be more correct in that most of the MU*s in the top 20/top 50 cheat. It's all a huge conspiracy to keep the good MU*s (the ones you play) off the top of the listing. You know what else? Weekly ritual blood sacrifices of pimply teenagers are required to get into the top 10. To break the top 20 all you have to do is sell code secrets to the government of Moldavia, who are secretly planning a hostile takeover of Disneyland, which they plan to use as their base of operations in the war on ill-fitting shoes. But thanks to YOU we have uncovered the conspiracy, and saved the world.
[/sarcasm]
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Old 02-02-2003, 02:08 AM   #65
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Tavish @ Feb. 01 2003,11:23)
It's amusing to see that some people enjoy adding to threads that have taken no interest at all in reading.  
Tavish --

This is NOT the first thread that the issue has been discussed.

I *do* read. This topic has been debated for a long time. I have not been on for awhile and I am not going to attempt to search back through every thread (there have been several on the general topic, and in different areas) to pick out quotes. Assuming that the original comments I recalled are even still around.

It has been brought to my attention that the rule I quoted was actually added in the midst of this current discussion.

So.. my observations were based on old news. I apologize for that.

As to your comment about my having information that Syn doesn't possess... there have been many posts in the past regarding the 10% experience reward for voting. It was hardly a secret. But again.. this comment was based on previous threads from some time back.

Since it has been over a month since I have played on Achaea, I will completely retract my comments as I no longer can say assuredly that the 10% experience reward is still active.

If indeed they no longer reward their players for voting, it certainly diminishes the strength of (if not outright negates) all the arguments I have read in the past about how that policy is the sole reason for Achaea's #1 ranking.

In regards to mud-raking , I will voice my opinions as I see fit; I do my best to include what I consider to be positive aspects when I mention things I do not like about a mud. I think that is reasonable.
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:45 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Loremaster @ Feb. 02 2003,01:08)
If indeed they no longer reward their players for voting, it certainly diminishes the strength of (if not outright negates)  all the arguments I have read in the past about how that policy is the sole reason for Achaea's #1 ranking.
It seems to me they have fewer votes than before. Further, the first voting session after the rule change is not indicative of anything, as players are still used to voting. The real test will be 6-8 weeks from now. Until then, it is too early to tell.
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Old 02-02-2003, 01:52 PM   #67
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When Merentha started to be listed on this site in 2001 we were consitantly #1 or #2, and on the rare weeks #3 on the list.  Then, because I personally feel any advertisments on your MUD's webite is somewhat rude and should only be done if it somehow rewards your mud (maybe you need $ to run it).  So anyways I took our main ads for TMS off, and concequently fell from #2 in the lsit to about #80.

This is what I found:
1 - our web stats halved, we started getting only 1/2 the visitors
2 - our playerbase and the number of new players we were getting did not change

Conclusions: having your mud on the top 20 page is a nice little ego boost, but it does nothing for your playerbase.  The growth of Merentha over the last 6 months is comparable to the previous 6 months when we were listed either #1 or #2.
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Old 02-02-2003, 03:14 PM   #68
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Who said I was addressing Synozeer? All of you act like it's some right you have to personally judge other MUDs. Does it matter if they cheat? Not really. Does it matter if they reward players for not voting? No. Does anyone care if they do? Yes, because it gives people some petty, unimportant thing to nitpick to death.
<Mass stupidity='crymerci'>
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[sarcasm]
You are absolutely correct that every single MU* in existence (whether or not they are even listed here) rewards their players for voting here. Also, you couldn't be more correct in that most of the MU*s in the top 20/top 50 cheat. It's all a huge conspiracy to keep the good MU*s (the ones you play) off the top of the listing. You know what else? Weekly ritual blood sacrifices of pimply teenagers are required to get into the top 10. To break the top 20 all you have to do is sell code secrets to the government of Moldavia, who are secretly planning a hostile takeover of Disneyland, which they plan to use as their base of operations in the war on ill-fitting shoes. But thanks to YOU we have uncovered the conspiracy, and saved the world.
[/sarcasm]
</stupidity>
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Old 02-02-2003, 04:28 PM   #69
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The problem I have with the Top 20 muds thingofmuhbob is that people don't vote for their MUD. The Pattern's End (TPE), the MUD that I play, is probably ranked like 83 if we're lucky. That's because nobody votes. If all the players who play there everyday voted once a day, we would be higher, but we don't.

Also, I've heard that some MUDs make sure that their players vote every 3 hours or whatever the limit is so that there is like 4 votes from the same person. Personally, I think that is wrong. I think you should have to register to Top Mud Sites (like for the message boards) and only have one vote per user name. That also has its flaws, but it would work out others.

*shrug* Some of those MUDs prolly deserve it, I dunno.
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Old 08-20-2004, 12:01 AM   #70
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Achaea beware, I shall single handedly one vote myself to the top your reign of terror has come to an end, IRON REALMS SHALL TREMBLE BENEATH ME..... ok well maybe not, but I love the dramatism, didn't you, I hear Emmy, maybe I can get Brad Pitt to play me and Sean Connery to play the evil Matt Mihaly, what do you guys think?

Oh yeah top 20, well they deserve to be there, all except I do believe the pay for ones, should be contet with their big A#s# banners at the top of the page, you guys oh sukie sukie. We know you're good, how about actually turning off votes for like a month just to allow pure homegrowners to play?? No thats on a serious note, just to have a pure FREE to play mud let us battle it out *I'll one vote myself to the top MWAHAHAH*

But seriously p2p guys, consider doing that, letting us battle it out for heck maybe just one voting period (the 15 days) would be kinda neat to see.

Let me know what everyone thinks of that Idea.

Heck Acheaa I'll label a Discussion Thread ACHAEA ranked #1 and keep it at the top bumped up...come on Matt, come on, you can do it, I have a twinkie in my pocket.........
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Old 08-20-2004, 07:02 PM   #71
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I personally feel that people shouldn't be able to vote every 3 hours, or whatever the specified time is for being to vote again. I feel that only one IP address should be allowed to vote once. I definately know there are MUDs out there that could have 30 people there saying its the best, but they have 90 votes? I don't think that's right. You don't see people getting to vote everyday during elections and what not. It isn't fair to the muds where people vote once, and then don't remember to vote everyday or whatever. I know if this happened, my mud's number of votes would probably drop, since I do this too.
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Old 08-21-2004, 02:25 AM   #72
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This would bring the top 20 list even closer to a list of muds with big pbases. As it is now, players of muds that they highly enjoy will take the time to vote for their mud more often then those who don't like it that much. Having each person only vote once would just be a measurement of the size of the pbase.
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Old 08-21-2004, 05:20 AM   #73
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Under the current system, players who like the mud will vote for it. Under a "one player one vote" system, players who like the mud will vote for it.

The only difference I can see is that people with fixed IPs would count the same as people with dynamic IPs.

Isn't this a good thing?
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:11 PM   #74
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Changing the timer to 3 hours would be a nightmare. If anything should be changed, it should be increased to 24 hours, not decreased.

Voting is a nice way for players to show their loyalty towards their favorite game. If players felt the need to remember to vote every 3 hours it would be a stressful and annoying process which in the long run would result in less traffic to TMS.
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Old 08-22-2004, 07:56 AM   #75
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Google modifies their logo for world events/holidays; I'm sure TMS members wouldn't mind a once-off "free muds only period" as a reward for all those who put in the blood, sweat and tears out of the goodness of their hearts.

Also, as an aside... can we please prefix the title of this thread with [OLD] so I don't start mulling over a huge flame at the_logos for his attitude a year or two ago?
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Old 08-22-2004, 11:26 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (gth @ Aug. 22 2004,06:56)
Google modifies their logo for world events/holidays; I'm sure TMS members wouldn't mind a once-off "free muds only period" as a reward for all those who put in the blood, sweat and tears out of the goodness of their hearts.
I'd mind.

No mud should get special treatment just because its free. Furthermore, your idea would result in all the arguments about what constitutes free. Some people do not even consider a mud to be free if they accept donations.

The point of the voting system is simple: in exchange for having your mud displayed high on the list, you send a lot of traffic to the site. The ranking is a direct reward for the amount of traffic you send to TMS.

Rewarding people for NOT sending a lot of traffic to the site is not beneficial for the site or for the games listed here as a whole. In the long run, more traffic benefits everyone.
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Old 08-22-2004, 08:10 PM   #77
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Threshold: I'm finding 'free' excessively easy to define.

The check for 'free'? Is money accepted for -any- in-game benefit, whether that benefit be playing or training sessions?

If no, then it is free.
If yes, then it is not.

It makes deciding what is free and is non-free for auditing purposes excessively easy.
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Old 08-22-2004, 08:29 PM   #78
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Free - Without Charge. That is what free is listed as in the American Heritage College Dictionary.

Charge - To set or ask a given amount as a price. (Same Resource).

Receiving donations does not make you a pay to play mud, It's non-profit, I can almost guarantee you a mud which only acccepts donations does not live on those assets alone. Those donations normally go to better the mud. And I keep hearing how if a free-mud only rank contest was done, how much traffic would be lost, because without the pay2play muds this site wouldn't be what it is.

Probably true, it wouldn't be what it is. But I believe it would still be here, still popping out top 20 muds, free or not, and still getting thousands of hits a day.

Why enter a contest you know you can't win. If you build/code/publish your own personal mud, from your own back-pocket and late hours with four of your friends. You will never make it to on here.

A p2p mud being #1 on here, is kinda like Michael Jordan whooping ass in the special olympics. It's going to be that way. My post was to allow basicaly yeah a special olympics, the muds with handicaps, our handicap being (no paid staff, no personal servers, just our imagination and want to bring something to total strangers they may make their life fun. Is it so much to relinquish the grand title being in the top 10 to let those be seen.

I personally think traffic would remain the same, if not increase. You see in the top 10 probably 500 hits a day are from those. Now, if those are removed and all others allowed to compete, everyone #@#@ one of their players will vote like crazy to squirm to the top knowing they stand a #### of a chance. I honestly don't think I'm wrong there.

This is directed at non top 20 players, would you vote more knowing you could actually be in the top 20
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Old 08-22-2004, 09:02 PM   #79
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I don't know - to be perfectly honest I guess I don't see what the huge deal about pay to play vs. free MU*s being listed on this site is all about.

Personally, I have no issues whatsoever with their presence on the listings - while it's obviously impossible to measure such things concretely, I think it's a fairly safe bet that somewhere in their typical 5000+ collective votes they brought in players who in turn clicked out on a free MUD's listing to check it out. More traffic in == more traffic out, yes?

To satisfy my own curiousity about the efficacy of various methods of advertising, a couple days back I implemented an extra step in the account registration process asking the player where they heard about our MUD. I had anticipated that word of mouth would have been the largest response by leaps and bounds; as it turns out, thus far, TopMudSites is considerably higher on the new account referral ranking.

According to our stats page, since the 19th of this month (when the tracking went live) TMS has sent out 76 referrals to our website, and of those, 16 individuals registered new accounts and attributed their registration to TMS. Only 10 attributed their new registrations to word of mouth. Not bad at all.

We are a completely free MUD, and on top of that, we belong to a fairly narrow and specialized genre (even within the niche MUD market) that usually doesn't appeal to as many players as your typical hack & slash - so in other words, if we can make it to the top 10 and reap those sorts of traffic-related benefits, anyone can, regardless of the presence or lack thereof of any large commercial MU*s.

This is probably where one of my favorite coder's mantras comes in - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Old 08-22-2004, 10:53 PM   #80
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Eh.

Doesn't bother me that much with pay to play MUDs on the listings - however, if you note, the major pay to play MUDs that everyone kicks up a fuss about are all owned by the same company.

Splitting up pay to play and free MUDs makes a lot of sense, and with that definition of free, it's easy to discern between a pay to play and a free MUD.

Furthermore, I'm noting that certain MUDs have usurped the definition of 'free' after looking at the listings. But considering some of the manufactured/generated quotes used for advertising in the past, I'm not surprised in the least.
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