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Old 08-22-2004, 10:09 PM   #81
Valg
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Dulan wrote:
Threshold: I'm finding 'free' excessively easy to define as a TMC auditor. The check for 'free'? Is money accepted for -any- in-game benefit, whether that benefit be playing or training sessions?

If no, then it is free. If yes, then it is not.

It makes deciding what is free and is non-free for auditing purposes excessively easy.


This seems like a sensible and objective way to clean up some of the mislabeling around here. I would love to see the pages here reflect the same standard TMC is apparently using.
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Old 08-22-2004, 10:47 PM   #82
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That's your interpretation of 'free'. I, and numberous other TMS members, would no doubt disagree with it.

TMC does not use that standard. TMC doesn't even mention whether muds are free or not, only whether they are pay-to-play. And to forestall the next inevitable objection, go to their 'search' feature and click only on 'not' next to 'pay to play' and then do a search. The first three muds that come up are Achaea, Aetolia, and Imperian. It's probably because they're not, but that might be too simple an explanation for a couple posters to accept.

--matt
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Old 08-22-2004, 10:56 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Aug. 22 2004,21:53)
Furthermore, I'm noting that certain MUDs have usurped the definition of 'free' after looking at the listings. But considering some of the manufactured/generated quotes used for advertising in the past, I'm not surprised in the least.
Ahh, Dulan. Perhaps Kimberly mailed you and asked you to start bashing us again? No need to mess around being subtle about it though! We all get a bigger kick out of being flamed by those with a less-than-solid grip when you sound more like Kimberly.

--matt
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Old 08-22-2004, 11:23 PM   #84
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Who said I was talking about you, the_logos?

I see no mention of your name in any of my posts.

Now, might I ask why you are paranoid of that particular point?

It is of no small interest to myself, considering that you imply I have a "less than solid grip" when I make a comment about a generic MUD - with no name given - and you begin the insults.

Interesting, isn't it? So, the_logos, why are you so paranoid about those posts to respond in such a vehement manner? I didn't name you, or any MUD in particular if I am reading my own posts correctly.
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Old 08-22-2004, 11:33 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Aug. 22 2004,22:09)
Dulan wrote:
Threshold: I'm finding 'free' excessively easy to define as a TMC auditor. The check for 'free'? Is money accepted for -any- in-game benefit, whether that benefit be playing or training sessions?

If no, then it is free. If yes, then it is not.

It makes deciding what is free and is non-free for auditing purposes excessively easy.


This seems like a sensible and objective way to clean up some of the mislabeling around here. I would love to see the pages here reflect the same standard TMC is apparently using.
It's the only objective method I have found to define 'free' vs 'non-free' MUDs.

Any other definition has too many shades of grey. This is the -only- black and white definition I have ever found for a particular MUD.

Unfortunately, this always ends up starting a flame war. People who have vested interests in making their MUD perceived as a "free" MUD when it is not always jump all over the definition.

I'm more then willing to talk about it with -anyone- to refine it. As it is, it's "rough". But, unfortunately, one side always flames the crap out of it with no real reasoning behind their flames, and the other side always says, "Great idea!".

I suppose that does say -something- about that definition of 'free', as it is an objective way of defining free, and no holes can easily be poked in it. MUDs that accept donations with no benefits still fall under free, MUDs that try to get cash from players don't.
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Old 08-22-2004, 11:53 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Aug. 22 2004,23:23)
Interesting, isn't it? So, the_logos, why are you so paranoid about those posts to respond in such a vehement manner? I didn't name you, or any MUD in particular if I am reading my own posts correctly.
I'm quite sure -all- regular readers of this forum are well aware of who you were speaking of. You weren't very subtle about it.

--matt
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:42 AM   #87
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I'm blonde, maybe thats why I thought he was speaking in general, and I'm a regular reader. Just because this flame war started with you logos doesn't mean its still about you. Its the great contraversy of free or not to be free.

Free is to put a price or request a price on an item.

Donations do not fall under that, you are not requesting people to pay you are accepting their contributions. But Pay2play muds request peopls money for items/artifacts/hours to play.

Come on really, how can we honestly have a debate on something as easily misconstrude as the word free. It's simple it can have a hundred meanings.

Achaea - not free
Threshold- Free

Why, one you can pay (Pay meaning recieve services or items) the other you can't
Hrmm seems simple.

p.s. what was this debate out?
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:06 AM   #88
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-sigh-

Except for one problem, the_logos.

Who is Kimberly?

Looking carefully at my posts, I did not mention you nor any MUD you run. Furthermore, you then promptly attacked me rather viciously, and accused me of being in consort with this 'Kimberly'. In a single post, that's what...3, 4 seperate logical fallacies? More? Jeebus, dude. I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.


Anyways! Back to the topic at hand.

Enola: Depends. I'm not familiar with Threshold's stance on money, but yes. Free can -easily- be misconstrued, which is why I suggested that particular definition of 'free'.

Constructive criticism would be appreciated on the definition, if you could critique it by any chance?
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:50 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by
Is money accepted for -any- in-game benefit, whether that benefit be playing or training sessions?

If no, then it is free.  If yes, then it is not.
I think most posters on the list would agree that this is a good definition of *FREE*. Pesonally I would also have added 'spells, weapons and equipment' to it. Or just used this simpler definition:

***
A mud is FREE if you cannot buy - ANY - in-game benefits for real money.
***

I also think that certain muds putting a *FREE* next to their name in the voting list, when they obviously are NOT free according to this definition, irritates a lot of people on the list. In fact I think I can safely say that it irritates everybody on the list, except of course the ones that misuse the word in that way, and their followers.

Consequently I'd like to make a formal request to Synozeer to install a new rule, that no mud is allowed to use the world *FREE* in their advertising, unless it actually IS free according to the above definition.

Hopefully this would get rid of some of the flame threads that spam the boards now, which would be a good thing for everyone.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:01 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulan,Aug. 23 2004,04[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Looking carefully at my posts, I did not mention you nor any MUD you run. Furthermore, you then promptly attacked me rather viciously, and accused me of being in consort with this 'Kimberly'. In a single post, that's what...3, 4 seperate logical fallacies? More? Jeebus, dude. I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.
I vaguely recall someone (Traithe perhaps?) pointing out, in some detail, that you have no idea what 'logical fallacy' means. It seems that's still the case.

Of course, if we're going to be childish and stand behind Mommy and giggle that, "No, I wasn't giving you the finger! I was giving the tree behind you the finger!" then I'd ask you to point out where I insulted you in my post. If we're to be ridiculous, I'd ask you why you're so paranoid as to feel that "those with a less-than-solid grip" refers to you? I would, but I'm not going to, as it's a stupid question, just like your "oh-im-so-innocent" stance is a silly, transparent stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Enola: Depends. I'm not familiar with Threshold's stance on money, but yes. Free can -easily- be misconstrued, which is why I suggested that particular definition of 'free'.
Misconstrued assumes that you're right in your interpretation of the word 'free.' If you walk into a movie theatre and aren't charged to watch a movie, that movie is free, regardless of whether they give you the option of buying popcorn or not.

Anyway, we're a commercial enterprise. If you're so certain we're committing fraud in advertising, there are no doubt a plethora of legal/official avenues available to you. Why not avail yourself of them? I encourage you to spend your time tilting at the windmills you've created in your mind.

--matt
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:19 AM   #91
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I loved the analogy of movie and popcorn.

1) The popcorn will not affect the ending, beginning or overall showing of the movie.

buying a token for a weapon on a mud, however will. So therefore that analogy wont work.

2) As for the legal issues. I can see, that you covered your "false advertising" avenue with those simple words "Free to Play". True its free to play, but not to its full extent.

So come on, your mud isn't free to play, its free to try for however long you wish, but to play with all the venues open you must pay.

So how about stating free lifetime trial membership......
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:37 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by
1) The popcorn will not affect the ending, beginning or overall showing of the movie.
buying a token for a weapon on a mud, however will. So therefore that analogy wont work.
I buy popcorn when I go to the movies because it makes the experience better. I like to be able to sit down and snack while I catch a flick, and I appreciate that option. Some people prefer to wait til after the movie and spend their money elsewhere, but they still get to experience the movie. I just happen to experience it without taking the extra time to eat somewhere else later, and that option is open to anyone to do the same.

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Originally Posted by
2) As for the legal issues.  I can see, that you covered your "false advertising" avenue with those simple words "Free to Play". True its free to play, but not to its full extent.
So come on, your mud isn't free to play, its free to try for however long you wish, but to play with all the venues open you must pay.
This statement is false. Anything that can be acquired through the purchase of in-world perks can be acquired with sufficiently invested time within the worlds themselves. Anything. Furthermore, there exist a vast array of "venues" that can ONLY be attained and experienced through sufficiently invested time, and purchases alone just won't get you there, no matter how much you pay.

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So how about stating free lifetime trial membership......
That would be lying to the customers. For shame that you would advocate such artifice.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:17 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dulan wrote:
I'm finding 'free' excessively easy to define as a TMC auditor.

The check for 'free'? Is money accepted for -any- in-game benefit, whether that benefit be playing or training sessions?

If no, then it is free.
If yes, then it is not.
Personally I'd rather see more categories of "pay-to-play" in the listings.  Or perhaps we could request an additional category called "pay-for-perks"?

Failing that, your definition is probably about as fair as you can get IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
If you walk into a movie theatre and aren't charged to watch a movie, that movie is free, regardless of whether they give you the option of buying popcorn or not.
But if they charge you $10 for the seat and $5 for the 3D glasses (assuming it's a 3D movie) you're not going to be able to enjoy the movie as much if you don't pay.  If I was going to a cinema like that, I would rather that the "Top Cinema Sites" website informed me before I spent all that time travelling there and queuing up to get in.

Of course your analogy also fails to address the point that most people assume they'll have to pay to enter the cinema, while the reverse is typically true of muds (particularly when there's a "pay" option in the listing and it hasn't been checked). It's also a rather poor analogy because watching movies isn't a competitive hobby.

Perhaps a better comparison would be paintball. I enjoy playing paintball from time to time, but what I particularly dislike is when a handful of people turn up who have spent a small fortune on top-of-the-range gear, while I'm stuck with a standard gun that can't even shoot straight and has half their range.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:29 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Aug. 23 2004,11:17)
But if they charge you $10 for the seat and $5 for the 3D glasses (assuming it's a 3D movie) you're not going to be able to enjoy the movie as much if you don't pay.  If I was going to a cinema like that, I would rather that the "Top Cinema Sites" website informed me before I spent all that time travelling there and queuing up to get in.
Your extension of the analogy breaks down based on the differences in the medium. It works at the original level because not a whole lot was suggested by it, other than seeing a movie for free makes the movie free, regardless of what else one might buy alongside. Your extension, however, would only be applicable if I could then earn those $5 3D glasses by going to see free movies 5 times a week. The investment of time provides access to the same opportunities as the investment of money. If you want to carry it further and make the analogy even more appropriate, we can imagine that by going those 5 times a week, not only do you get the free 3D glasses, you get a special Spiderman™ keychain that you wouldn't otherwise be able to purchase through the theater. The same is true of things in the realm that are available only through the investment of time, and not money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Perhaps a better comparison would be paintball.  I enjoy playing paintball from time to time, but what I particularly dislike is when a handful of people turn up who have spent a small fortune on top-of-the-range gear, while I'm stuck with a standard gun that can't even shoot straight and has half their range.
My response would be that you probably need to play paintball more often if this is the case. Trump their monetary advantage by investing more time into your practice. I play paintball quite often, and unless I am in a tournament, I use my worst gun. Its range and accuracy are far worse than the higher end models I own, but in getting better with that weapon I improve leaps and bounds with the higher end models during tournament play. This situation, of course, assumes that I have both enough time to play often and enough money to get high-end products. But it's just as possible that I could have won those higher end products through tournaments in which I used my low end gear, and in some cases this is absolutely true.
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:10 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cyre @ Aug. 23 2004,17:29)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Perhaps a better comparison would be paintball.  I enjoy playing paintball from time to time, but what I particularly dislike is when a handful of people turn up who have spent a small fortune on top-of-the-range gear, while I'm stuck with a standard gun that can't even shoot straight and has half their range.
My response would be that you probably need to play paintball more often if this is the case. Trump their monetary advantage by investing more time into your practice.
But I'm not interested in trying to prove that I'm better than them despite being at a huge disadvantage - I want to play a game of skill, knowing that if I win it's because I'm better at it, not because I bought a custom-made chaingun that can fire 10 paintballs per second at a range of up to half a mile.

And the same applies to muds. You don't care about other people buying their way ahead? That's fine - it's a perfectly viable business model. But myself and many other people do care, because don't want to pay to have to compete fairly. So the question is, why are you so opposed to us having the chance to see that information in the mud listing?
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Old 08-23-2004, 01:04 PM   #96
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Where does it end, then? This information is readily available with a cursory examination of the websites. There's a ton of information I wish I could see in a mud listing, but it would be impractical to request that things be changed to accomodate. There's no real reason why certain games should have to list whether they allow both time and money to be used as tools of advancement, other than to assuage those few who seem to bring this topic up on the forum whenever the opportunity presents itself, as opposed to other games having to list whether their gameplay is optimized for use with zMUD over Telnet. It's as much of a disadvantage to someone who is a telnet user to play the bulk of games for whom zMUD and other MUDding clients allow a wealth of scripting opportunities as it is to you and others who don't want to invest time to make up for what you can't spend in cash. There are a million situations out there like this and a million potential topics of outrage for the boards to address, but its ultimately not worth the time. There are a wide range of outlets to express your opinions on different games and the way that they portray themselves, but asking for one thing to be given special treatment over another is just opening Pandora's Box to a flood of useless banter on what should or should not be said in MUD promotions.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:14 PM   #97
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The information is readily available on the website. Hrmm I visited the website, and read all about the pay perks, I saw salads, and dragons steaks and all neat stuff for all those nifty points. But I didn't see what could be bought or used with them.

And even though the popcorn enhanced your experience of watching the movie it didn't affec the movie. the popcorn to the movie is zmd to mudding.

And the venues to gaining the buyable items through gameplay....well maybe so, but thats a really big disadvantage, lets see I play 5 hours a week and have the highest eq money can buy, while Joe Smoe played 130 hours a week for the same eq. That's not really fair, it should state pay-for-perk next to free to play, let people know they can buy or play their way to the top.
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Old 08-23-2004, 03:47 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Aug. 23 2004,05:01)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulan,Aug. 23 2004,04[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Looking carefully at my posts, I did not mention you nor any MUD you run. Furthermore, you then promptly attacked me rather viciously, and accused me of being in consort with this 'Kimberly'. In a single post, that's what...3, 4 seperate logical fallacies? More? Jeebus, dude. I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.
I vaguely recall someone (Traithe perhaps?) pointing out, in some detail, that you have no idea what 'logical fallacy' means. It seems that's still the case.

Of course, if we're going to be childish and stand behind Mommy and giggle that, "No, I wasn't giving you the finger! I was giving the tree behind you the finger!" then I'd ask you to point out where I insulted you in my post. If we're to be ridiculous, I'd ask you why you're so paranoid as to feel that "those with a less-than-solid grip" refers to you? I would, but I'm not going to, as it's a stupid question, just like your "oh-im-so-innocent" stance is a silly, transparent stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Enola: Depends. I'm not familiar with Threshold's stance on money, but yes. Free can -easily- be misconstrued, which is why I suggested that particular definition of 'free'.
Misconstrued assumes that you're right in your interpretation of the word 'free.' If you walk into a movie theatre and aren't charged to watch a movie, that movie is free, regardless of whether they give you the option of buying popcorn or not.

Anyway, we're a commercial enterprise. If you're so certain we're committing fraud in advertising, there are no doubt a plethora of legal/official avenues available to you. Why not avail yourself of them? I encourage you to spend your time tilting at the windmills you've created in your mind.

--matt
Logical Fallacies

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I vaguely recall someone (Traithe perhaps?) pointing out, in some detail, that you have no idea what 'logical fallacy' means. It seems that's still the case.
Wrong. This is a logical fallacy in and of itself. Not only is it attacking the person, but it is appeal to authority that is invalid in this context. Furthermore, it is a blatant lie, as all Traithe did was point out the logical fallacies that I was using. I began using them as you refused to stop with the logical fallacies, and you were losing badly in the argument. Traithe stepped in and pointed out my fallacies, but did not bother to point out your own. (Which there were pages of, if memory serves.)

Now, let's point out in detail just what parts of that post were logical fallacies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm quite sure -all- regular readers of this forum are well aware of who you were speaking of. You weren't very subtle about it.
Appeal to Pity.
Prejudicial Language.
Popularity.
Attacking the person.

There's more, too. However, the_logos, I have never seen you bother to actually enter a discussion. All of your arguments consist nearly entirely of logical fallacies when you argue, and quite often all that saves you is a horde of rabid fans. Tell me, the_logos, can you honestly enter a discussion, only by yourself, against one other person, and not resort to your hordes or logical fallacies?

Honestly? I know I've tried to discuss something with you civilly in a thread before, but you refused completely. And I also can't believe how many logical fallacies you succeeded in including in, what, TWO SENTENCES?

Finally, this isn't a threatre the_logos. That is actually a logical fallacy in and of itself - specifically, a fallacy of definition in that it is too broad. A theatre is irrelevant in this case. There is no equal circumstances which can be equated currently - after all, buying popcorn is not equivalent to buying, say, a better seat. You could argue that this is equivalent to offering free seats in a theatre, but the only seats worth having are the ones that are paid for. That is closer to an analogy that could be drawn. Furthermore, I believe there is a fallacy of analogy (False analogy, perhaps?), but I have forgotten that particular one. Popcorn is closest to the client, not the pay for benefits.

Now, back to the discussion. And please stop trying to derail the discussion at hand, the_logos. It's a fairly benign discussion about just what -is- free, if you'd bother to read the posts. Why do you feel so threatened about a discussion about what is/is not free?
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:44 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by (Cyre @ Aug. 23 2004,19:04)
Where does it end, then?
The purpose of the listings is to provide information that people are interested in when looking for a mud to play. As this topic keeps coming up again and again, I think it's fairly safe to assume that people are interested in it. Indeed, I believe it would help cut down a lot of the flame wars about the exact definition of "pay-to-play" should such an entry be added.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:12 PM   #100
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So come on, your mud isn't free to play, its free to try for however long you wish, but to play with all the venues open you must pay.
Why not actually get your facts straight first? This is blatantly incorrect. There is -no- avenue of the game that is not available free of monetary charge.

--matt
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