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Old 01-19-2006, 07:20 PM   #181
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Which is why I've stated, Atryeus, that I'd be all for even further specifying the categories, so long as it does not become completely ridiculous(most likely on purpose, to ruin the positively proactive proposal), or so long as it allows all parties to come to an agreement on it being fair termanology, and there is a link on the website describing exactly what that termonology means.
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Old 01-19-2006, 07:23 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Jan. 19 2006,17:55)
Honestly, the degree to which people think "monumental time investment in a tedious, repetitive behavior = skill" always confuses me.
It comes from the fast-food-employee-styled standards of achievement that are implicit in so many online games (not just muds) in which the last man standing gets promoted to assistant manager.
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Old 01-20-2006, 02:28 AM   #183
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[quote= (the_logos @ Jan. 19 2006,15:54)]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almondine War,Jan. 18 2006,17:33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Armageddon's WEBSITE has links to fan merchandise, and this could be considered commercial, but it is not actually affiliated with the MUD.
You're telling me Armaggedon's website isn't affiliated with Armaggedon the MUD? That's absurd. Of course it's affiliated with the MUD. It is the official website of the MUD.

--matt
Matt,

If you go take a look at armageddon.org's website, community resources -> online stores you'll see that there are links to sites not affiliated with Armageddon, which carry Armageddon related products.

I believe this is what Almondine War was saying.  You might want to read and look before you say things are Absurd.

Now... don't make me start up another thread entitled " The meaning of 'affiliated' "

Heh, all in good fun Matt.  You have to expect to receive some attacks being in the number 1 position on TMS.

A toast to your success, and here's to hoping you lighten up a bit.

Xotl
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:22 AM   #184
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Threshold @ Jan. 19 2006,17:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Honestly, the degree to which people think "monumental time investment in a tedious, repetitive behavior = skill" always confuses me.
A skilled player has explored the world thoroughly, and knows his/her way around the realms, including all the shortcuts. He/she knows where to go to find the best equipment, and the best places to hunt in at different levels. He/she also knows the best fighting tactics against different mobs and players, and how to set up their aliases.

Honestly, the degree to which people think knowledge like that can be bought for money always confuses me.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:55 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Jan. 20 2006,17:22)
Threshold @ Jan. 19 2006,17:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Honestly, the degree to which people think "monumental time investment in a tedious, repetitive behavior = skill" always confuses me.
A skilled player has explored the world thoroughly, and knows his/her way around the realms, including all the shortcuts. He/she knows where to go to find the best equipment, and the best places to hunt in at different levels. He/she also knows the best fighting tactics against different mobs and players, and how to set up their aliases.

Honestly, the degree to which people think knowledge like that can be bought for money always confuses me.
Just a thought, have you played IRE's games? Or read any of their forums? As been said time and again, just having the skills and artifacts doesn't make you a good fighter. If you don't have the skill (and to some extent atleast some marco's/aliases and highlighting triggers at the least) you will lose in a fight against anyone. Anyone does include a skilled person that has never bought credits.

In IRE games, credits lets you learn skills faster, that doesn't mean you still don't have to learn how to USE those skills. Many of the best fighters are people that have grown gradually, because they learned how to use each skill more effectively than someone that just maxed out all skills in a day(which isn't possible, due to limits on how many credits you can convert per day).

I'm sure there are some pay-for-perks games that are as you say, and I agree that those games are not worth playing. In this case, IRE doesn't fit the mold.
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:31 AM   #186
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What P4P games are worth playing? It's different different depending on what playing is worth to each individual player. For me, I don't enjoy any PvP where some people have spent IRL money to buy a better player-file. I understand that in, basically, MOST semi-balanced games, a skilled PvPer will be able to run circles around a super-powerful newbie character. That's not the issue. The issue is the advantage skilled PvPers who have the ability to buy character enhancements have against other skilled PvPers who do not have the same access to credits, for whatever reason.

That's just for me, personally, though - in the end, it has nothing to do with the goal of this thread(or at least, -my- goal in this thread), and that's to get some color coding into the TMS website so that searching players have more information on the style of MUD they choose before they start playing.
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:19 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 20 2006,19:31)
What P4P games are worth playing? It's different different depending on what playing is worth to each individual player. For me, I don't enjoy any PvP where some people have spent IRL money to buy a better player-file. I understand that in, basically, MOST semi-balanced games, a skilled PvPer will be able to run circles around a super-powerful newbie character. That's not the issue. The issue is the advantage skilled PvPers who have the ability to buy character enhancements have against other skilled PvPers who do not have the same access to credits, for whatever reason.

That's just for me, personally, though - in the end, it has nothing to do with the goal of this thread(or at least, -my- goal in this thread), and that's to get some color coding into the TMS website so that searching players have more information on the style of MUD they choose before they start playing.
Just as a sideline, the rapture engine doesn't use anything as clunky and fallible as playerfiles to store information about the characters within the game.

Ultimately, virtually everyone who is blathering on about the disadvantages of a pay for perks hasn't played and of the IRE games in question enough to get into the combat system. Their views are being based on what they know of mud combat, which they've learnt from a style of mud combat originally conceived over 15 years ago.

Can someone point out this supposed horde of woefully done by players, who have cried foul over missing an advantage.. that they can get through just playing normally anyway?

-H
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:29 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by
In IRE games, credits lets you learn skills faster, that doesn't mean you still don't have to learn how to USE those skills. Many of the best fighters are people that have grown gradually, because they learned how to use each skill more effectively than someone that just maxed out all skills in a day(which isn't possible, due to limits on how many credits you can convert per day).
Credits don't let you learn skills FASTER skills can't be learned without credits period. While all skills cannot be maxed out in a day they can be maxed out in less then a month if one is willing to purchase the credits. Being a successful PKer in an IRE is more dependent on Client Coding then using skills. You can be successful in IRE combat by purchasing a system and knowing what macros to hit.
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:45 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ Jan. 20 2006,16:19)
Ultimately, virtually everyone who is blathering on about the disadvantages of a pay for perks hasn't played and of the IRE games in question enough to get into the combat system.
Actually quite a few of the specifics in regard to the costs (such as a max-level character, with 8 major skills and no mini-skills, requiring 92.9% of his skills to have been trained with credits) have come from IRE players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Their views are being based on what they know of mud combat, which they've learnt from a style of mud combat originally conceived over 15 years ago.
As opposed to the balance-recovery style of combat...which was originally conceived by Avalon over 15 years ago?
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:08 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Traveler @ Jan. 20 2006,23:29)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
In IRE games, credits lets you learn skills faster, that doesn't mean you still don't have to learn how to USE those skills. Many of the best fighters are people that have grown gradually, because they learned how to use each skill more effectively than someone that just maxed out all skills in a day(which isn't possible, due to limits on how many credits you can convert per day).
Credits don't let you learn skills FASTER skills can't be learned without credits period. While all skills cannot be maxed out in a day they can be maxed out in less then a month if one is willing to purchase the credits. Being a successful PKer in an IRE is more dependent on Client Coding then using skills. You can be successful in IRE combat by purchasing a system and knowing what macros to hit.
Funny, I could have sworn all of the characters I created started with 150 lessons and then gained more lessons when I gained levels... I must be crazy. Without a single credit, you can be a decent combatant, to be top tier you need to buy credits or aquire them in game AS WELL as know your skills.

As has been proven time and again, just buying a good system doesn't make you a good fighter, but it can make someone better than they were without it. Play one of the games for a while, or even read the combat section of the forums to see the level of skill needed in actually mounting an offence, systems are used only for defence and are never perfect. A skillful player knows how to attack, when to attack and what to attack with. They will also know the times a system cannot handle it, and how to cure themselves manually to get the system back on track.

In 6+ years of playing IRE games, I have not once seen a perfect system. I've seen plenty of near perfect systems, but they are not perfect and still need player input at times to get the curing correct. As most good fighters will tell you, it's better to build your own than buy it, then you know the quirks of the system far better.
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Old 01-20-2006, 03:04 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hajamin @ Jan. 20 2006,05:55)
As been said time and again, just having the skills and artifacts doesn't make you a good fighter.  If you don't have the skill (and to some extent atleast some marco's/aliases and highlighting triggers at the least) you will lose in a fight against anyone.  Anyone does include a skilled person that has never bought credits.
I don't think anyone's saying credit purchase is sufficient to be competitive at the top tier, simply necessary.  (Or necessary if you don't want to spend 34,089 hours gold farming to buy them from other people.)

Buying a gun won't make me the top deer hunter around.  In my case, it wouldn't even make me competent.  However, not buying a gun (or bow, or big-ass steel-jawed deer traps or whatever) will ensure that I am never competitive with those who do make that purchase, assuming a minimal level of competence on their part.
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Old 01-20-2006, 03:23 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Jan. 20 2006,15:04)
Buying a gun won't make me the top deer hunter around.  In my case, it wouldn't even make me competent.  However, not buying a gun (or bow, or big-ass steel-jawed deer traps or whatever) will ensure that I am never competitive with those who do make that purchase, assuming a minimal level of competence on their part.
Agreed. If the system is deisgned with any modicum of care, pure-skill can trump pure-money. But it's not like you send in the $100 and then contract Newbie's Amnesia. You spend the $100, and now you have all the player-skill you've always had, plus a new infusion of character-skill. Anyone who used to be even with you just fell behind.

This is, of course, the goal. If spending money didn't strongly influence how often you win, few people would spend the money. Purely cosmetic perks wouldn't sell at nearly the same rate.

Back to the checkboxes sub-discussion, would this cover all games?

( ) Optional payments can influence gameplay.
( ) Optional payments access otherwise unavailable gameplay.
( ) A one-time payment is required to continuously play.
( ) Recurring payments are required to continuously play.

Examples:
Carrion Fields: n/n/n/n
IRE: y/n/n/n
Threshold: y/?/y/n (I don't fully know how their perks system works.)
Gemstone: y/y/y/y.

I think this covers what the_logos wanted, based on earlier posts.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:51 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by
Funny, I could have sworn all of the characters I created started with 150 lessons and then gained more lessons when I gained levels... I must be crazy. Without a single credit, you can be a decent combatant, to be top tier you need to buy credits or aquire them in game AS WELL as know your skills.
Funny, I could have the sworn the total amount of lessons/neocredits (credits gained for leveling) would only allow one to reach somewhere around Fabled/Virtuoso in one skill. You can't even look up what actual level in a skill you can attain with those lessons/neocredits because IRE doesn't ALLOW them to be posted on their websites. If you claim you can be even a decent combatant without having one Transed skill then I call BS. You wont be a decent combatant because the top tier fighters will hand you your behind no matter your skill at programming. Check the forums of all IRE games and see if any 'decent' combatant thinks you can be a 'decent' combatant without being at least tri-transed. If you don't have the skills to use you can't be a decent combatant. To acquire all the 'free' lessons and neocredits for leveling you need roughly a year of continuous gaming as it is. Having only one skill at Fabled/Virt will make it difficult to be a successful basher much less a PKer.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:10 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Traveler @ Jan. 21 2006,05:51)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Funny, I could have sworn all of the characters I created started with 150 lessons and then gained more lessons when I gained levels... I must be crazy. Without a single credit, you can be a decent combatant, to be top tier you need to buy credits or aquire them in game AS WELL as know your skills.
Funny, I could have the sworn the total amount of lessons/neocredits (credits gained for leveling) would only allow one to reach somewhere around Fabled/Virtuoso in one skill. You can't even look up what actual level in a skill you can attain with those lessons/neocredits because IRE doesn't ALLOW them to be posted on their websites. If you claim you can be even a decent combatant without having one Transed skill then I call BS. You wont be a decent combatant because the top tier fighters will hand you your behind no matter your skill at programming. Check the forums of all IRE games and see if any 'decent' combatant thinks you can be a 'decent' combatant without being at least tri-transed. If you don't have the skills to use you can't be a decent combatant. To acquire all the 'free' lessons and neocredits for leveling you need roughly a year of continuous gaming as it is. Having only one skill at Fabled/Virt will make it difficult to be a successful basher much less a PKer.
Notice I said decent, then you said a top tier fighter would kill you... those would be two different things. Any experienced player could tell you, it takes just under 300 credits to trans a skill, which is posted on forums and even some player created help files(guilds and cities can create their own helpfiles). Many of the skills needed to be a decent or even mid-level fighter come below master, about 100 lessons. It's recommended by most fighters to be level 80 to really begin being a decent fighter, I've seen people get to level 60 in under 24 hours of game play, and level 100 in a few months time. It's all based on dedication.

Just like IRL fighters, many of the best fighters only really use a few basic moves that they can execute perfectly. That's what it takes to be a good fighter in IRE games, knowing how to defend(curing anything requires nothing but IG gold to buy the herbs/exliers/salves/etc) and knowing exactly how to use a few of your skills. Many of the trans skills are fairly useless for combat anyway.
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:17 PM   #195
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Unless there's an objection to the proposed "four checkbox" system, I'll try to run it by Synozeer at the end of the weekend or so.

In the meantime: Taken from this link:

From : Matthew Mihaly
Subject : Re: (MUD-Dev]) Pay Muds & Free Muds - working together, or against each other?

First, I run a pay mud, not a free mud. It doesn't charge (yet) for on-line time, but to advance the strenght and variety of your abilities very far upwards takes money. Players buy credits to raise their skills (as a particular skill goes up, they gain more abilities that are contained within that skill). Maxxing out all your skills isn't something most people do, but to get, for instance, all three of your class-related skills to Transcendent (the max), would cost, if you bought the largest amount of credits at once that you could, about, $330. Maxxing out your character takes about $1200.

This checks out with the cost estimates posted, as far as the pure-cash route. The first sentence sure is interesting, though.

Questions for IRE players: How long (time-wise) would it take you to start with a new account, and get all three of your guild's skills to transcendant? I continue to be curious about what the trade-off is.
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Old 01-20-2006, 07:28 PM   #196
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Interesting link.
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:08 PM   #197
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Hi everyone.

I am one of those thousands of silent voices. I read these forums, get frustrated by some posts and posters, but generally choose to stay out of the discussion.

Now, however, I noticed Valg's link and quote. What he failed to mention was the date on that site:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Date : Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
While the question extended to IRE players is in fact still valid, I just hope anyone reading that quote will keep in mind it was made 6 years ago, not long after Achaea opened, and remember that before making any quick witty posts.

As for the question itself, I really wouldn't know, Valg, sorry.
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:47 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultimately, virtually everyone who is blathering on about the disadvantages of a pay for perks hasn't played and of the IRE games in question enough to get into the combat system. Their views are being based on what they know of mud combat, which they've learnt from a style of mud combat originally conceived over 15 years ago.
Some of the most well-known and respected PvP designers in the community are arguing for this change - Achaea is widely only accepted as the most superior PvP MUD by itself. And as KaVir said, their basic principles of the IRE combat system have been floating around for many, many years before they were born - they just got an improved paint job and some respackling. However, it is impossible to tell how good their combat system truly is, or is not, because it allows for players to transcend the regular realm of "leveling" with a credit system in which credits are 99% of the time bought with money. The remaining 1% or less gifted/prize credits are simply not enough to sustain all of the players who do not have the money to buy credits. (traded credits don't count, they were still boughtT with money - particularly lazy players merely sell credits to obtain things in which even IRE won't directly sell them. So traded credits are paid for by very experienced players, who have been around for a while(and likely, have even bought some credits themselves here and there).

For these reasons, many "expert" PvPers do not like IRE's system. I've played multiple IRE games for multiple months at a time, and just realized that it wasn't worth my time, no matter how good of a PvPer I might be. Again, this is all opinion, but it is the reason why many non-IRE players think poorly on the company... it advertises itself as the best PvP MUD around(it isn't, not by far, trust me) - and then requires massive amounts of credits to become as powerful as you can be(or even should be).



P.S. Valg, that idea sounds good also. Many good ideas have been posted, but the other side of this debate never seems to respond to them - they respond instead, only to the argument about the MUDs themselves - and if they talk about the TMS site at all, they ignore the better made suggestions of players.

It's transparent, guys - it's very transparent. I'm involved in a "n/y/y/n" commercial MUD project at the moment myself, and I'd have no issues letting be listed as such on a MUD listing site, such as TMS. As a matter of fact, once we are in beta and on the listserves, I'll put it in our "bios" whether or not this progressive improvement suggestion thing goes through with Synozeer.
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:24 PM   #199
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Why must things be posted to look as hard facts while really only being opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Some of the most well-known and respected PvP designers in the community are arguing for this change - Achaea is widely only accepted as the most superior PvP MUD by itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
a credit system in which credits are 99% of the time bought with money.
If the point of those arguing for this change in the way games are designated (free, or pay-for-perks, or pay-for-orangutans, or whatever) is so that it clears up misconceptions or misused terms, perhaps posting statements that are solidly and fully rooted in reality would be good? Or at least statements that don't show personal bias?
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:22 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
If the point of those arguing for this change in the way games are designated (free, or pay-for-perks, or pay-for-orangutans, or whatever) is so that it clears up misconceptions or misused terms, perhaps posting statements that are solidly and fully rooted in reality would be good? Or at least statements that don't show personal bias?
I was quoting and replying to your bias and subjective statement with one of my own.


Also - do try to seperate my opinions on IRE from my argument for the changes. I even go as far as to state that my opinions are merely opinions(you didn't quote that part, naturally). You did not go that far - so try to accuse me of things I actually do - and again, try to seperate(as I've asked) opinion-based arguments on the quality of IRE games with the purpose of this argument... to come to a conclusion about what system would best serve THIS website. They are seperate conversations occuring simultaneously in one thread.

Do try.
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