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Old 07-03-2003, 10:18 AM   #1
jediwannabe
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Cheating on the top muds list has been something that has been debated for a while and lately im seeing how ridiculous its really getting.

I decided to browse through some of the muds the other day just to see how big the player base really is and the quality of the mud to be fitting for their spot on the ranking list. I was surprised

First I tried a mud called Turning Point. I logged on several times during the day but didn't seem to find anymroe than 6 people on at a time. For a MUD ranking 7th, I was a bit confused. But logging on as a new char, I'm bombarded with note after note after note requesting players to vote over and over and over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[ 15] Tipheryce: Vote!
Tue Jul 1 01:38:11 2003
To: all
We're currently 11th on Top-Mud Sites. Remember to vote like crazy to TP,
we're not far from being able to take 8th place. We deserve 8th place
guys, lets do our best to steal it and secure it.

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/t...m.cgi?id=pleos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[ 17] Tipheryce: Voting
Wed Jul 2 163:46 2003
To: all
We're *very* close to passing Fuedal Realms on the vote list at Top-Mud
Sites. Be sure to vote every time you're on at
http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/t...m.cgi?id=pleos. I think we
can even pass Ancient Anguish and hit 6th place if we're really diligent
about voting.
Already I didnt really understand why a mud with such a low playerbase and was pretty stock ROM 2.3 could be so high ranking, so I went to their forums and saw posts like these:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Posted: July 02 2003,14:43
We're only 4 votes away from #7... I'm fixing to vote from a different computere here at work, so that will be 3 votes... and I guess I'll vote from the tp.org machine itself, so that will be TWO votes... then I'll vote from home... that will be one more vote! - Jay
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It remembers you by IP. I tried voting from one of the other computers in our house, but since we're on a router, we all have the same IP number. So it didn't work. Oh well, it was worth a try! - Ellyllon
Quote:
Originally Posted by
From someone who came from Feudal Realms...They have no right to be ahead of us.
Then I sign on Feudal Realms. Using telnet because I was being lazy, their character generation lineup was impossible with telnet. Why is it most muds don't account for people that may have to use telnet? Anyway, once my character was made, their greeting is full of advertisements to vote on TMS or to buy stuff online in their shop.

I guess I really dont understand why people are so desperate and advertise it so flagrantly. Where has good old fashioned mudding gone? People want as many players as possible with no quality

- James
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Old 07-03-2003, 11:46 AM   #2
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It's understandable. High rankings=more exposure=more people to play the game. It just depends on what the particular mud's balance is between trying to get new players and not ****ing off the existing players. Also, it depends on the players' ability to ignore these messages. Maybe it's built up over time such that only bombarding the message boards produces any result anymore? Who knows.

However, incidents of cheating like this are another ballgame, and should be reported to Synozeer.
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Old 07-03-2003, 12:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (jediwannabe @ July 03 2003,10:18)
First I tried a mud called Turning Point. I logged on several times during the day but didn't seem to find anymroe than 6 people on at a time. For a MUD ranking 7th, I was a bit confused. But logging on as a new char, I'm bombarded with note after note after note requesting players to vote over and over and over.
Perhaps they simply don't let you see how many people are on? I've played muds where newbies in particular have no way to see how many people are on because, for instance, their 'who' command only reports characters specifically there to help newbies.

--matt
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Old 07-03-2003, 08:37 PM   #4
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Feudal Realms does have -one- blurb in our MOTD when you log in about voting on here, which was honestly requested by players to remind them to vote.

As for the shop URL, obviously it's not very effective, we've sold a whole nothing at the shop.

Don't assume that simply because we have a blurb in our message of the day that we are attempting to pull in quantity and not quality.

And as for muds which appear out of nowhere with small playerbases with huge vote totals, I'll leave that to Synozeer to look into...


Terloch
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Old 07-04-2003, 12:06 AM   #5
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While this is obviously a hideous hideous thing, I'm sure lots of people will respond. So, I will instead reply to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Why is it most muds don't account for people that may have to use telnet?
Because Windows telnet is horrific. It doesn't implement codes correctly, and has a few other, specialized problems that can drive custom codebase builders nuts (drove me nuts for a while until I managed to encapsulate them away). Some of the Windows mud clients are just as bad. While it is possible to support all of these, it is fairly painful, and not something newbie admins, or even first/second year coders, are going to be able to do. You need some experience beyond muds (or with a custom codebase at that level) to be able to think these types of problems through properly.
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Old 07-04-2003, 07:45 AM   #6
Tamsyn@zebedee.org
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Well said.
Not only is Windows telnet appalling and buggy, the user interface is different depending on which version of Windows you have. So you need different guides to setting it up. Trust M$ to screw it up and then to remove Java from Windows XP so Java clients don't work either.

The reason why people fix their TMS entry is obvious: The MUD population as a whole is decreasing as more and more competing sites with modern features (graphics arrive. It's a struggle to stop a user base depleting.
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Old 07-04-2003, 08:21 AM   #7
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Actually, I disagree. From what I've observed, the total MUD population seems to be increasing greatly. The problem (for some) is that it is becoming increasingly concentrated among fewer MUDs.
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Old 07-05-2003, 11:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Spazmatic @ July 04 2003,00:06)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Why is it most muds don't account for people that may have to use telnet?
Because Windows telnet is horrific.  [etc]
Windows telnet certainly is a contraption of Satan, noone will dispute that. However often the problem is as simple as coders using just "\n" rather than "\n\r" when they make the strings for new char creation. This sounds stupid but I have encountered it more than once. The result on Windows Telnet? Consider the string "A\nB\nC"...
on a normal client it will appear
A
B
C
on windows Telnet it will appear
A
B
C
Adding the \r will fix the problem on Windows telnet with no adverse affect to the other clients whatsoever. Anyway, I assure you that I remain,
your faithful and obedient servant,
Erdos
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:56 PM   #9
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Something that I've always wondered about...

From the Rules page on TMS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Can I offer rewards for voting?
You CANNOT offer incentives or rewards to players for voting. That means you cannot give players items, experience, or anything else in return for votes.
And yet, a certain top-ranking MUD blatantly offers in-game bonuses to people who vote for them on this site.  Every now and then, reminders pop up in the middle of gameplay urging players to vote and rewarding them with a boost to exp. gain when they comply.  Why has this been allowed for so long?
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (HaiWolfe @ July 07 2003,22:56)
 Why has this been allowed for so long?
Probably because you never told Synozeer about it.
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Old 07-08-2003, 01:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (HaiWolfe @ July 07 2003,22:56)
And yet, a certain top-ranking MUD blatantly offers in-game bonuses to people who vote for them on this site.  Every now and then, reminders pop up in the middle of gameplay urging players to vote and rewarding them with a boost to exp. gain when they comply.  Why has this been allowed for so long?
Yeah, that's illegal and those muds clearly need banning. That hasn't been permitted on this site since January or February of this year.

--matt
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Old 07-08-2003, 11:16 AM   #12
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Getting back to the original post, there's a difference between reminding users to vote and offering IC incentives to do so.

Visibility on gaming sites creates an utter ****load of traffic for muds. For P2P muds, more traffic usually means lower prices for players (pennies from the many and all that) So it's in an admin/hoster's best intrests to remind players every now and then "Hey, this site exists, how about going and voting for us there"

But, as far as In game consequences for voting/not voting, I'm surprised admins who run their muds like that have any player base whatsoever.

Voting's a voluntary act, it should stay that way.
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Old 07-08-2003, 01:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
For P2P muds, more traffic usually means lower prices for players (pennies from the many and all that)
Almost every business I've been apart of works in a very different manner.  Lower prices or discounted promotions were used to increase sluggish traffic.  When the traffic grows the prices are slowly (sometimes not so slowly) increased to account for higher overhead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
So it's in an admin/hoster's best intrests to remind players every now and then "Hey, this site exists, how about going and voting for us there"
It is in their best interests to draw more players so they can generate more revenue.  It is in the player's best interest to draw more players to create a more dynamic world.  If the players wanted to do this, they should not need reminders of any sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
But, as far as In game consequences for voting/not voting, I'm surprised admins who run their muds like that have any player base whatsoever.
I feel much the same way about the muds with constant reminders.  As a player I know it annoys me to no end and I usually end up not voting out of spite.  Are these messages wrong?  Absolutely not, as long as they follow the rules of the voting list then admins are free to advertise their game however they choose.  If it doesn't bothers the players then more power to them.
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Old 07-08-2003, 02:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Maelgrim @ July 08 2003,11:16)
Voting's a voluntary act, it should stay that way.
Well, I don't even see how it could NOT be a voluntary act. I don't think any mud is likely to send men with clubs and guns to your house and make you vote.
--matt
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Old 07-08-2003, 03:13 PM   #15
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ July 08 2003,14:15)
Well, I don't even see how it could NOT be a voluntary act. I don't think any mud is likely to send men with clubs and guns to your house and make you vote.
--matt
What an *excellent* idea.
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Old 07-08-2003, 05:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Brody @ July 08 2003,15:13)
What an *excellent* idea.
I think for my next online game, one of the line items in the budget is going to include fees to cover flights, hotels, and meals for Vinny the Butcher, whose responsibility will be, uh, persuading grief players to be less griefy.
---matt
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Old 07-08-2003, 10:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Almost every business I've been apart of works in a very different manner. Lower prices or discounted promotions were used to increase sluggish traffic. When the traffic grows the prices are slowly (sometimes not so slowly) increased to account for higher overhead.
This very much so depends on the type of business we're dealing with. I can not speak for ALL pay to play MUDs, but the only real time when costs are increased is when the current income does not make the current expenses. For instance, some MUDs I've been to may not lower the rate from one price to a discounted other, but rather they offer more packages to players. Say you agree to be a part of the game (or just pay for it) in advanced - then you're discounted. While it's not quite a direct result of more players, it's a sign of a business that's willing to work things differently and thus probably has the slack in the bottom line to do it.

The pay to play MUDs I've been on usually arn't out to be top-notch software companies. They charge for the game to cover the costs of running and expanding it. This is why I feel a pay to play MUD should be a boat-load better than a free mud (though, this has rarely been the case). More players = more income = more chance of the admins either bettering the game, or working with customers and give them breaks. (Usually the first mentioned occurs )

At any rate...

One can't expect a cheater to be guessed correctly. Rather than posting in regards to MUDding, why not send word to those who can DO something about what you feel is wrong? Otherwise you're just giving even more exposure to those who are wrong... but not by voting. I'm curious as to how many people, after reading this post, went to the mentioned MUD's site or even logged in?

As for the second mentioned MUD, I see no issues with a gentle reminder to A) Vote for the game you're playing should you feel they deserve it, and B) Purchase items so that the money can be recycled back INTO the game you play. Good servers arn't free. Professional coders, unless working with passion, rarely give their time without payment. Asking to exchange something for a little help in this department is worthwhile, should the MUD improve with the increase of income.

Lastly, a note on the current MUD population. I think it is safe to say that the population is growing. Unfortunately, as are the number of newly sprouting MUDs due to an expansion in the available resources for them. Think back 5 years and remember how it was trying to start a MUD up then. Now fast-forward to today... the codebases are more frequently found and even more actively supported and updated. Someone with hardly any experience in PLAYING a MUD can easily download a windows verison of a codebase and HOST one.

Anywho... I said my piece.
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Old 07-08-2003, 11:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I can not speak for ALL pay to play MUDs, but the only real time when costs are increased is when the current income does not make the current expenses.
I think we are saying the same thing.  My statement is contesting the previous idea that as a game's pbase grows they lower their prices since they are making more money.  I don't claim I speak for all p2p muds either, yet I have never heard of a game lowering its prices as the game grows (I'm sure there are instances I am unaware of) but instead must charge more in order to A) cover the new overhead created B) continue to evolve and market the game.
Skotos
Ultima Online
EverQuest
Gemstone
With perhaps the exception of Skotos (at the time) none of these games could claim to be lacking players.  The increases are all on account of the growing cost to support growing games.
ObGreed: Yes I am giving these companies the benefit of the doubt that the increases are not simply to raise profits.
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Old 07-08-2003, 11:29 PM   #19
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Just an update... I logged into Turning Point out of curiousity. I saw no posts on the message boards claiming what was said here. There IS a blurb at the top asking people to vote every 12 hours. There are 3 or 4 'notes' when you log in, but you have to read through them on your own. You're not 'bombarded' by them.

There were 23 people online when I logged in, at 11:30PM EST. This is quite a large number.

Aside from begging players to vote... I've not found anything that supports the accusations here. Of course, they could have always removed said posts from their forums... (Which you have to register in order to even view, and you don't see the rules until AFTER you register.)

At any rate. No evidence...

-- X
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Old 07-09-2003, 02:34 AM   #20
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well the post was removed but theyre at least talking about it on their forum. Even the owner is complaining about the rules. I just dont see why the rules aren't enforced on TMS.

http://www.tp.org/cgi-bin....;t=3493
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